12 Strings vs. 10 Strings

Richard Shelley · From: Denver, CO, USA

Would any of you very knowledgeable veterans of the psg like to expound on the virtues or disadvantages of a 12 string compared to a 10 string? Thanks very much!

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Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

12 strings increase the range and chord possibilities, but usually they will weigh a little more too. This is usually because there will be extra pedal and KL hardware underneath. A single U12 will weigh less than a D10 though. The 12 string also usaully has closer string spacing which tends to throw you off temporarily if youre used to 10 strings.

I have both, and there's always an adjustment period when I switch between the two, but after playing a D10 for years, I'm lovin' the D12.

David Doggett · Posted 15 Dec 2004 12:44 pm

Not that I am a knowledgeable veteran, but I play a 12-string universal, so I have extra strings on bottom for E9 and extra strings on top for B6. To be honest, I don't use those extra strings much in country music or Western Swing. Those extra strings were not there in the development of these styles, so there is not much to do with them. But for rock, blues, jazz, or classical music, I couldn't live without those extra strings, at least in the E9 mode. I think you will find that traditional country and western players are happy with an S10 or D10, and they don't see what the interest is in 12 strings. But a lot of players who play in other genres really want the extra strings, especially for E9.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2004 at 12:45 PM.]

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I started out on a D-10, then went to a U12 for many years. Now, I am playing a 12 string extended E9. I don't know why more E9 players don't use the 12 strings. They don't get in my way at all. I guess it's what you get used to. I am new at the extended E9, but so far, I have found it to be great for guitar boogie type stuff, Memphis, piano shuffle rhythm, Folsom Prison, Pretty Woman, etc. The low G# and E notes give you the guitar notes that seem to be missing on a 10 string. I am still a novice at it and would like to know if there is any course study available for the extended E9 tuning. I would encourage anyone thinking about an S10 to go for an S12.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I started out playing an MSA S-12, 7+5, right off the bat...(got a fantastic deal on it). And never switched to 10 strings. So, I'm pretty lost in any 10 stringer. But I wouldn't switch for anything. You can play anything on it that the 10 stringer's can play (but they have to switch necks)...Still, even then, the differences in what can be played on either setup are very small.

I find that the chord structures are much the same, but having all the pedals and knees for "C6th" and "E9th" available at the same time makes for much more fluid, complex-chord changes. I really like that...there's no switching necks and/or tone quality...just playing with tons of possibilities.

I wish more pickers used the U-12 setup, but I understand the preference for the tried and true D-10 standard setup.

Todd Pertll · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Click on "Links" at the top of this page. Then click on Articles. Read Maurice's "The Future of Steel"

Richard Shelley · From: Denver, CO, USA

Thanks much for all the great info & input so far; very helpful stuff.
George, I see you're right down the road from where I was born & raised, Johnson City. Right on!

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

GEORGE AND RICHARD,i gotta jump in here,first,my wife of 35yrs.is from Chucky TN.i love that country!2nd,i owned a 12string universal,Zum,since 1984,wonderful guitar,but i could never really enjoy it,i was so use to a double 10.and seemed to never get over loseing the 9th string.it was just different.that picking 6 8 10 was just in my blood i guess.OK,MERRY CHRISTMAS
farris

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

I have never played a ten string. I went directly from a Fender 400 in 1969 to a D12 MSA that I bought from Al Marcus in California. I prefer 12 strings because of the lower register in E9 and on C6 I can add D string on top and still retain my high G and I use an F under the low C which gives me chords with a fat low sound.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Initially, it's easier to get "lost" on a 12 string.

I've always found the 10 string E9th to be too limited in range. I like to play lower notes on every fret than the 10 string E9th offers. That's why I play 12 strings.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

To answer your question, I would have to ask...

A.) What kind of music do you want to play?

B.) Are you thinking only of a single-neck guitar?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I have a D-10, I have tried a few S-12s Unis and a Ext E9.
I was much more at home on Chris Broiks's extended E9 compared to the Uni's,
but I could be comfortable on a Uni after a bit of aclimitazation.

I want a Bb6 S-12 set up like David Wright or Johnny Cox.
The most power in the smallest package.
But I will keep the old Bud D-10 if at all possible.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 December 2004 at 02:00 AM.]

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I didn't know anybody in the world knew about Limestone and Chuckey, halfway between Johnson City and Greeneville and the birthplace of Davy Crockett.Granny Clampett from the Beverly Hillbillies TV show mentions in one episode that she was born in Limestone. The great thing is, I can brag that I am the best player in Limestone. (and the only) Limestone and Chuckey are not the end of the world, but you can see it from here. If you guys have relatives or in-laws that you visit here on occasion, bring your steel over and show me something. The door is always open.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have played D-10's and S-12 Universals, I liked them both, but the smaller guitar won out for me. The S-12 is so much easier for me to take somewhere than the D-10's were. It takes me about a week to get used to one or the other. I like a lot of the fellows like the extra bass strings on the E9th, makes it a lot more interesting than just regular 10 string E9th. I guess if your comfortable with one or the other your way would be the best!@! I have never missed the 9th string on S-12U's since I just press a knee lever and it brings the 9th string B note up to a D note, I mean its just 'a no brainer'. Gosh, is that how you spell that??

Ernie

S-12 Universal, Nashville 400 with Miracle Audio kit, 2 SE-50's, 1 BBE Sonic Maximizer!

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Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

hello George,you are in a fine place!!my father n law has passed,he was Sam Thompson,fine man,miss him a lots!!have a great CHRISTMAS,mabe a white snow huh!!
later my friend, email any time. farris

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

If Limestone, TN is the edge of the world, then Limestone, NY is the edge of the galaxy. Anybody want some snow?

James Quackenbush · From: Pomona, New York, USA

I like the U-12 as it's one neck to play a variety of different music on ....If setup extended E9 or Universal, the range is much wider with the additional strings...You have everything you need on one neck, so you only have to buy one set of strings....It's also smaller , and weigh's less than a D-10 and you have to only buy one pickup for it ....I (like b0b ) like the additional strings for the fullness of the tone....The 10 string E9 always felt to me like something was missing ...I 'm not a good enough player to utilize much of the first 2 strings, so they didn't do much for me, and then when dropping down to the lower strings, they didn't go far enough for me in the chord structure ....Now I'm using the first 2 strings more, and I have the luxury of the additonal strings at the bottom end for just about ANY kind of music I want to play ... Kicking over one knee lever to go into B6th mode is a small price to pay for the additional styles you can play in the 6th mode....I completely understand what the D-10 players are saying though ....If you were brought up on a D-10 , I would imagine it would be a difficult transition to go to a universal style....I changed early in my learning stages , so it was a no brainer for me ....One of the only down sides is the fact that not every manufacturer makes a U-12 or an S-12 .... There are still some GREAT sounding U-12's out there built by some GREAT companies...
Hope this helps....Sincerely, Jim
Happy Holiday's !!...

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

JAMES,you are so right,i owned a Zum for 20yrs.12universal,great guitar,found many things i can't do own a 10 string!learned to cheat as JEFF NEWMAN taught us back in the 70s,patterens,walking down 2frets below the major cord,using b pedal and d lever.hard to teach a old dogs new tricks!!i played the zum,with a gospel group 2yrs.did good,but still missed the 6,8,10 groups.i know they are there on universal,but gotta grab them different.thats just something i couldn't get over it seems. so i play double 10
fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffarris

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

George,my father N law carried me over to limestone to a saw mill,one time,bailys i beleive it was got some beautful walnut boards there,are they still in bussiness?
Have a great CHRISTMAS man!!! farris

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Hi Robbie-Long time no see. I sure remember you, when I was teaching Guitar in Santa Rosa, California. When you got that D12 MSA in 1969, you were way ahead of the curve, in deciding to buy a D12. Smart move. I hope it gave you great joy.
............ Happy Holidays...al..

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Richard Shelley · From: Denver, CO, USA

Donny, in answer to your questions, I play strictly country & country gospel. I have a little of that SGAS, though, so I guess I try to rationalize things through before simply jumping out on a "floatin' log." George, I'll make it a point, next time I'm back there (probably sometime next year) to look you up! As for the rest of you guys, I'm lovin' all the great info & opinions; keep 'em comin'! Oh, yes, Anyone want to go into a little more basic info about the differences in & values of the U12 & S12 tunings?

David Doggett · Posted 18 Dec 2004 12:02 am

Richard, an S12 extended E9 merely has two more strings added at the bottom of a standard E9 to fill out the E chord with a low G# and E. They usually have 3 or 4 pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers. They usually cost only slightly more than an S10.

An S12U loses the standard 9th string (D) of E9 and adds three more notes of the E chord, G#, E, B. The missing D is on a knee lever. When the E lower lever is activated, the lower ten strings become just like a standard C6 neck, except a half step lower (B6). Unis usually have the three standard pedals of E9, plus four or five additional pedals that function as the five standard pedals of C6. They usually have 4 or 5 knee levers, and may have an additional 3-lever cluster in the center dedicated to the B6 mode. They usually cost about halfway between the cost of an S10 and a D10.

On a uni you have 90% of the standard E9 strings, pedals and knees, and 90% of the standard C6 strings, pedals, and knees. Thus you have 180% available from note to note on the single neck. Furthermore, the two tuning modes relate to each other. The tonic fret of E9 becomes the V fret of B6 (thus the B6 V chord resolves into the tonic of the same key in the E9 mode), and the IV fret of E9 becomes the tonic fret of B6. So the chord positions of E9 and B6 have some simple relationships that don't exist between E9 and C6.

Once I got used to the missing D string on the bottom of the uni, I found the grips simpler on the uni than on an extended E9 (which I tried first). I liked the uni so much better that I converted my extended E9 to a uni. I found that I preferred playing in E9 on a uni to playing in E9 on an S10 or S12. Plus I had the whole B6 mode available at all times. It was win-win for me. And a uni is smaller and lighter than a D10. So I guess that is win-win-win.

Richard Shelley · From: Denver, CO, USA

Thanks, David, for a very comprehensive description of what the two tunings are about. I see how both could add a certain dimension to playing an E9 10-string, but the Universal tuning does, at least at this point, seem to offer a bit more versatility. It would no doubt be great fun to have a little time & opportunity to compare the two, side. I've got to get that great DVD of the last Gospel Steel Guitar Association get-together back out & look a little closer at some of the overhead shots on those 12's.

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