Looking for chart for Emmons pp invoice numbers

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

Doe,s anyone have a chart for the Emmons pp invoice numbers?....thanks jack

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I have my records from the Emmons Wraparounds I own that have the third Emmons numbering system -- the invoice numbers -- and the Bolt-ons I have had as well that I could verify through other means such as dated paper invoices that came with the guitars. However, I never saw much relevance in dating an invoice guitar. If they are a Wraparound, they are Summer and Fall of 1965, unless they are a single neck Wraparound, then some are 1966. If they are a Bolt-on, they are fall and winter 1965, especially if a red belly and Wraparound cabinet, through at about half of 1967.
But if the guitar is a Bolt-on that is not a Wraparound cabinet, it is a post - jig guitar. The guitar was not hand fitted with transfer screws. They are essentially all the same. A 1965 Bolt-on with the newer cabinet is the same as a 1967. They will have different bellcranks, and maybe even different pedal cranks and some 1965s will have different pedal rods and pedals than a 1966 or later 1965, and different rollers, but they are built the same, so the invoice number is not relevant.
What is relevant, is how the guitar is put together. For example, there is a 1967 Cut Tail I used to own that was 108X D that was built on a black belly Wraparound cabinet. It was two serial numbers away away from 1090D that is a Bolt-on purchased for Christmas 1967 and twenty numbers higher than the earliest Cut Tail I have seen or heard of that is 1068 D if I recall without looking at my files. Those are examples of three 1967 guitars that are all very different. But they are all Fall/Winter 1967s.
I date early pre-jig Emmons guitars because the date is relevant as the guitars transitioned from month to month. But after jigs were used for construction, the guitars became essentially the same and more assembly line with less hand-fitting and personal attention to building tension into each individual guitar.
The earliest Emmons other than the two prototypes uses the first Emmons numbering system and is ES 130002. It is January 1964. It never was Stereo. It is shown in the original Emmons brochure with Buddie Emmons playing it.
The second is 464001 which is called Number One but it is really the second Emmons and it is April 1964.
The real Number Four is June (there are three "#4s" out there, ahem)
Number Five is a July guitar 764005
Numbers Three and Six are both from August -- 864003 and 864006.
Seven through ten are October and are wood neck Wraparound Bolt-ons with a "W" after the serial number. Actually, two were converted to metal necks but the Ws tell the story.
And you go on from there to May 1965 which is number 23.

The dates are significant for these guitars because they change as the months progress, until November or arguably December when the Emmons Wraparound features and construction became consistent and the new changer fingers were used and the new keyhead and axles and the fourth style bellcranks and the third style pedals and hooks for pull rods etc.

The cabinets did not get bigger until 1965, although, as I stated above, I found a Wraparound cabinet on a 1967 Cut-Tail and also on a 1965 red belly Bolt-on. The Bolt-on was built as a Wraparound but was updated by the Factory before it was shipped out -- so it had a very brief private life as a Wraparound. Only the marks seen on the underside of the changer and the width of the cabinet showed it was once a Wraparound.

Again, I have notes on a number of invoice guitars through 1967, but really, the dates are not relevant. Even the single neck Wraparound guitars famously made for the school in Toronto may share the same invoice number despite being six individual guitars in one case, but those six guitars were not made on the same date. To apply a single date to all six guitars would be incorrect.

I look at it this way:

The Prototypes of 1963
The January 1964 D-10
The Month-Year-Number guitars from April 1964 through May 1965, probably
The Invoice number guitars from Summer 1965 through the first half of 1967
The "D" guitars from 1967 until today -- I think you still get a "D" if you order a Push Pull to be made by Mike Cass. Maybe you get the Commemorative numbering?

A few disclaimers:

I don't know about single neck "S" guitars at all and I don't know much about Emmons guitars after 1967 as I have only had a handful of those. I collect Wraparounds and sometimes other pre-Jig guitars.

Ron Lashley disavowed the famous Emmons serial number list that appeared years ago on the Carter website. Someone asked him at a steel show for a date chart and he gave one off the top of his head with very general numbers. That "information" appeared on the Internet with magically specific serial numbers tied to years and is inaccurate for the 1960s guitars. I cannot say anything about the 1970s numbers because i just don't know.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

A relevant way to date the Double Ten guitars is by construction and parts.

But that gets detailed and complicated and requires a big Emmons collection so you can have the guitars side by side.

in the 1960s Emmons used six different bellcranks -- four in 1964 alone.
In the 1960s they used four different styles of pedals -- six or seven styles over the years of the Push Pull.
Two keyhead styles -- three if you could the guitars with Marlen keyheads.
Three rear apron styles
three cabinet styles for D-10s in the Sixties and I honestly don't how many changes were done in the Seventies.
Two changer finger styles in 1964.
Four changer mounting styles in the Sixties
Three pedal crank styles in the 1960s
Two pull rod styles -- springs then hooks to connect to fingers.
Three axle sizes
Five pedal rod styles over the years with three styles in the Sixties.

There are many other details I have tied to transitional dates that are more relevant than invoice numbers. For example, the example of the six single neck Wraparounds that went to the Toronto school all under the same invoice -- the guitars do not share all the same features, but then they were not all made even close to the date on the invoice.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Jack Goodson · From: new brockton,alabama (deceased)

Thanks for the info Chris, that gives me a ball park idea...Jack

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Damn. That's layin' it down, Chris.
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Chris, you're holding back.

Let's hear some details, man!

Winking

_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

I don't know where numbers nine, eleven and twenty two are. How is that for details?

Here is a great Bigsby detail -- the original pickup coils were wrapped with the yellow splicing tape used for reel to reel tapes.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Now THAT'S the kind of detail the Chris Lucker that I go to supplies!!

Very Happy

_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

We never could figure out what the stuff was wrapped over the coils until seeing a bunch of Paul Bigsby's reels of talk tapes and Hawaiian Music tapes and seeing the stuff on the reels and a package of the splice tape.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

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