| Author |
Topic: Great source for essential idiomatic E9 licks and phrases? |
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2016 12:46 pm |
|
So, in addition to playing guitar. mando and bass, I teach on all those. While I think JUST learning licks, for the sake of learning licks, isn't the best......it's also true there are some core, absolutely essential idiomatic moves and licks that you kinda MUST know on each instrument. Especially if you have a good handle on theory and transposing, and being able to fit and personalize those licks for different situations.
So, now that I'm attempting to learn this E9 contraption........any suggestions for some great sources for licks, turnarounds, intros, endings, backup phrases, etc that EVERY steel player should know? Video is nice, but not essential. Audio helps greatly.
Whatcha got? |
|
|
 |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
|
|
|
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2016 2:00 pm
|
|
Thanks Lane.......
Should've mentioned, I found Mickey's videos, and some of them are real helpful. A good resource. I appreciate the videos you do, as well.
Keep 'em coming, folks! |
|
|
|
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
|
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
|
|
|
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2016 5:26 pm
|
|
Jim,
Funny you called it a contraption. Just this past weekend, I played at my church and a new violinist, (Note: not a fiddler)said to me "Hey, I heard your contraption" 
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
|
|
|
Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 27 May 2016 7:28 pm
|
|
. Jim Loessburg's courses are great,well worth the $. He teaches iconic solos note for note, if you don't want to learn them by ear, which IMHO is the best way to learn licks.I kinda think if someone can't learn a lick by ear, they might not be ready to play it
Last edited by Joseph Napolitano on 1 Jun 2016 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 27 May 2016 7:57 pm
|
|
Idiom means "figure of speech", often one that doesn't mean what the words mean. I've never, while driving my truck, actually put the hammer down.
So the "idiomatic expressions" in music would be the commonly used licks, which stand in for phrases if they were speech. Make sense?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
|
|
|
|
Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
|
Posted 29 May 2016 11:46 pm
|
|
Learn to play the melody.
That being said, I wish I was better at playing the melody rather than idiomatic licks.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
|
|
|
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 31 May 2016 6:39 pm
|
|
| How about some uptempo backup material? Right now I can get by with some rhythmic blocking and mashing the AB. Any material out there? |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 31 May 2016 6:50 pm
|
|
How uptempo are you thinking? I may try to put together a video of ideas. Are you thinking shuffles, things like Highway 40 Blues? Name a song you're thinking of.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 31 May 2016 6:57 pm
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| How uptempo are you thinking? I may try to put together a video of ideas. Are you thinking shuffles, things like Highway 40 Blues? Name a song you're thinking of. |
Yeah, nothing specific, but something Hwy 40 is right in the wheelhouse, absolutely. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 31 May 2016 6:58 pm
|
|
I'll try to get it Monday.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Joe Ribaudo
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 1 Jun 2016 1:08 pm
|
|
| Joseph Napolitano wrote: |
| I kinda think if someone can't learn a lick by ear, they might not be ready to play it |
Well... I'm thinking figuring something out vs. learning to play it the way someone with years of experience would might flatten out the learning curve a bit. At least I hope so.
_________________
Sho~Bud Super Pro, Fender Concert, NV400, Orange, (LP's, Tele's, Gretsch, Burns, etc...) |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 1 Jun 2016 2:35 pm
|
|
I'm trying to figure out how to explain acquiring licks by ear. Sadly, describing the "flavor" of the notes in a way that everyone will get isn't easy.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 1 Jun 2016 5:49 pm
|
|
| Joseph Napolitano wrote: |
| I kinda think if someone can't learn a lick by ear, they might not be ready to play it |
As someone who teaches music, I can unequivocally tell you.....this is nonsense, and the kind of thing people say that totally discourages beginners. You can have an absolutely spot-on excellent ear, but if you don't have the experience on an instrument to know how and where to translate it....or to translate it in the most efficient way......then it's almost useless. How do you learn that skill? From other people. Know what a good way to learn it is?
Learn the core vocabulary of the instrument.........like I'm asking about. |
|
|
|
Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 1 Jun 2016 7:12 pm
|
|
Ok Jim, My intention wasn't to discourage anyone. I've been helped tremendously by instructional material from Mark Van Allen, Jeff Newman, Mike Archer, Jim Loessburg, Steve Palousek and Greg Cutshaw , just to name a few.Licks galore!
Additionally, I think it's essential to work on ear training, and for all players, pretty much from the beginning , to develop the skill of learning things (including idiomatic licks) by ear. (That's the last time I post late at night after a long gig.) |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 1 Jun 2016 10:15 pm
|
|
Joseph, while most of us prefer to (and thrive on) improvisation, many folks prefer know what's coming.
I've mentioned before that a good sideman is an actor, portraying the emotional content of the song in sounds and silence.
Most stage actors prefer to work from a script: there are musicians who prefer the equivalent of a script. They're not deficient. I know a steeler in my area who finds playing off-the-cuff frustrating, working up all his solos and fills up in advance. Plays a lot of Opry shows, every note in the show is exactly what you heard in rehearsal. In the words of Dave Dudley "I couldn't live like that." But it comes out beautiful where beauty is called for.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Johan Forsman
From:
Sweden
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 12:43 am
|
|
| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| Joseph Napolitano wrote: |
| I kinda think if someone can't learn a lick by ear, they might not be ready to play it |
As someone who teaches music, I can unequivocally tell you.....this is nonsense, and the kind of thing people say that totally discourages beginners. You can have an absolutely spot-on excellent ear, but if you don't have the experience on an instrument to know how and where to translate it....or to translate it in the most efficient way......then it's almost useless. How do you learn that skill? From other people. Know what a good way to learn it is?
Learn the core vocabulary of the instrument.........like I'm asking about. |
This was very well said.
When I started, less than a year ago, listening to pedal steel on a record I wouldn't know what too listen for, no reference. Now I do understand a bit more, and I can probably figure bits out by finding the key of song and knowing a few standard licks I can put some pieces together and get somewhere.
But, learning a lick solely by ear is not something I will spend the precious time I have on unless I absolutely have to. Not right now, I will deal with that later on in my "career".
On the other hand, what I've learnt so far (less than a year) is that you will have to get good at listening for and identifying nuances; little "ghost notes", slides and stuff if learning a lick from tab. This is soooo much more the case than learning a lick by tab on 6 string guitar. If you don't listen to or adopt those nuances you won't sound much like the lick you're trying to learn. Of course you can add your own nuances, which I guess is what would make the lick your own. |
|
|
|
Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 4:05 am
|
|
| I understand Lane. Every gig I play , The person leading the band invariably calls out songs that I've never played. I rarely play a gig that is entirely scripted. The zillion hours I've spent on ear training/intonation have served me well. I think players should devote some of their practice time to learning stuff by ear , even early in their learning. Some are born with great ears, the rest of us can develop them. |
|
|
|
Steve Palousek
From:
Holland. Texas, USA
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 6:19 am
|
|
I'll bet there are several videos here that might interest you....
http://www.stevesrecordingstudio.com
Go to the CD/DVD tab.
Call if you have any questions.....
Donna Palousek |
|
|
|
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 7:12 am
|
|
| Fellow forumite and my partner in Goodrich has 2 courses "101 Fat and Sassy Licks" parts 1 and 2. Contact him- you won't be disappointed |
|
|
|
Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 10:49 am
|
|
| Lane Gray wrote: |
Joseph, while most of us prefer to (and thrive on) improvisation, many folks prefer know what's coming.
I've mentioned before that a good sideman is an actor, portraying the emotional content of the song in sounds and silence.
Most stage actors prefer to work from a script: there are musicians who prefer the equivalent of a script. They're not deficient. I know a steeler in my area who finds playing off-the-cuff frustrating, working up all his solos and fills up in advance. Plays a lot of Opry shows, every note in the show is exactly what you heard in rehearsal. In the words of Dave Dudley "I couldn't live like that." But it comes out beautiful where beauty is called for. |
Lane,
I understand that you are kind of defending my question and I appreciate that, but I would also say.....
No "improvisation" comes out of thin air. For it to make sense, it should probably be grounded in a knowledge of the language you're trying to "speak". I've almost NEVER, ever played a solo note-for-note off the record, when on the bandstand. But I've sure as heck learned a lot by taking those solos, licks, and phrases apart in the woodshed and figuring out what makes them tick.......then mutating them to fit.
It seems to me the Pedal Steel, in particular, has a lot of core, basic moves you need to get under your belt before you can really start thinking about "Improv vs Regurgitation".
YMMV |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 2 Jun 2016 11:10 am
|
|
Indeed, Jim. Just as extemporaneous¹ (unplanned, off the top of the head: literally "out of the present time") speech builds on the words we already know. The more words we have, the better chance we have of saying the right thing.
¹see the Steve Martin movie "Roxanne"
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
