Push Pull question

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I am thinking about putting a half tone tuner on a lower on RKL, second string E9. It would be buried deep under a ton of other raise rods and would be very hard to get to for purposes of fine tuning. Is there any way to do this short of using a feel stop set-up, which I have never liked and absolutely will not use?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I thought the standard practice was to attach a return spring to the raise finger and remove the collar on the pushrod so it pushes the raise finger. So you tune the D with the hidden screw and the C# with the bottom screw.
That's how mine was.
Obviously it won't work if you raise it to E.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Lynn Stafford · From: Ridgefield, WA USA

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Just to be clear: I want to lower the second string a full tone using LKL, and lower the second string a half tone on RKL. I absolutely do NOT want to put these two changes on one lever and use a feel stop. I have this set-up on a Williams all pull guitar and am finding a lot of good uses for what can be call a split 2nd string lower.

Thank you Lane and Lynn for your responses. I am trying to understand what you have each offered.

I probably would be willing to sacrifice the second string half tone raise as I think the split second string lower is more useful to me. But I don't understand how your suggestion works Lane. I get the part about pulling the raise finger up to the raise position with another spring added, and then moving the lowering rod (push rod) up to push the finger down to the D pitch with RKL. I would think that the D lower would then be tuned from the lower bank of the end tuners, perhaps in reverse. But I would still need another lower/push rod to get the 2nd string down to C# on LKL. I don't see how to get a second lower/push rod in place. What am I missing?

Lynn: Am I correct in assuming that for RKL there is a bell crank on the second string lower/push rod on, and that has a normal collar secured to the rod. And then the half tone tuner feature has been added to RKL near the center line of the guitar, right next to the knee lever itself? The stop for that lever is towards the changer. That appears to move the half tone tuner to a location much more accessible, although still under the guitar, and leaves open the ability to also have a raise on the string. Do I have all this correct?

Thanks again to both.
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

What you want would be easy to do, but a right bitch to tune, should it need it.
Sorry for misunderstanding you.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

On RKL, lower string 2 with the same rod used with LKL. Then add an additional raise rod (with fine tuner) to RKL that will restrict how far the raise finger can be lowered. You'll have to insure that this added raise rod does not interfere with the lowering action on LKL.
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Jerry Jones

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Are we sure that solution would still allow it to drop to C# when the other lever ISN'T activated?
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Jerry's idea would be easy enough to try. Just add a raise rod with a half stop tuner to the upper swivel of string 2 on RKL. You have three changer finger leverage points to choose from and the tuner is easily accessible. It's a reasonable idea.

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

Other than that, you could create a separate free-rotating bell crank on another shaft that transfers the raise action of RKL to the 2nd string lowering rod. The raise rod from RKL to the free-rotating crank should contain a fine tuner.... effectively moving the adjustment of the lower to the raise side of things.
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Jerry Jones

Ben Lawson · From: Brooksville Florida

Check with SGF member Tommy Vollmer. He just put the Eb to E with the F# to G# change on the RKR on my P/P.

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I make fully tuneable and tension adjustable half stops for my P/P's. I do have to reach under the guitar to tune them though.

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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Lynn: The more I study the pictures you posted the more I question whether I really understand what's going on with that RKL. I've found that half tone tuners only work well when they have a good firm stop to butt up against. The stop that I see in your photos appears to have springs attached where it should have a firm stop. The rod with the half tone tuner is being pulled by the lever away from the changer and towards the keyhead, so shouldn't the collar stopping further motion be on the changer side of the stop? If that specific configuration was used for my purpose, the lever would be mushy due to the springs and would not give consistent intonation. Is that lever set up for a half tone lower on string 2, with a full tone lower somewhere else on the guitar? Forgive me if I'm being dense. I really am trying to understand.

Jerry: Thanks for your suggestion. I do think that it is possible to do what I want with one or the other of the suggestions.

I guess it's time to inventory my miscellaneous parts and see what I still need to acquire. Then I'll need to tear apart pretty much the whole E9 neck and get a lower rod installed leading to LKL. This could take awhile.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

The simplest way to do it with the half-tone tuner easily accessible would be like this, the threaded half tone tuner would be mounted in a fixed support somewhere. If you wanted to have the raise on string 2 also, the half stop thingy would need a separate bell crank; if you lower 9 also on the same knee you would probably need a spring or two in the mix to balance the pulls

Paul, I could make the necessary mount bracket for you, give me a call next time you're headed down to Sac.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Ian: Your drawing makes a lot of sense to me. The mounting bracket for the half stop part, however, needs to be on a separate bell crank in the middle of the guitar, like in Lynn's pictures, and it needs to be on the changer side of the bell crank because the other side has no usable real estate. The RKL is sitting just next to the cut out for the neck selector and tone control. The only place a mounting could go is on the other side from where the lever is mounted. The rod simply needs to be secured to the mount and then the stop would be the half tone tuner against the collar as you have depicted. I think that would work.

I'll definitely be in touch. I'd love to take you up on your generous offer. I need to keep the steel intact for about another ten days because I have a country swing gig coming up where my S10 won't cut it. In the meantime I'll be working to make sure I have all the parts needed.

Thanks again to all for helping me sort through this puzzle. I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

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