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Topic: What is E9th |
A. B. Traynor
From:
4th Street& Royal ave New Westminster, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 2:04 pm |
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| Would someone please explain, in musical terms, what makes the open tuning B-D-E-F#-G#-B-E-G#-D#-F# an E9th. I understand the E+ Triad is E-G#-B But where does the 9th come from. The reason I ask is b/c someone asked me this and I was unsure, also I want to know for myself. Thank You very much |
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David Friedlander
From:
New York, New York, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 2:10 pm
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| Fsharp is the ninth of E. You've got two of those leaving only the D and D# as outcasts |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 2:19 pm
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D is not an "outcast".
A Ninth chord also includes the dominant seventh.
D is the dom seventh in the key of E.
The D# is not a part of the E9 chord, which is why some call the tuning "E9 Chromatic". |
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Roger Kelly
From:
Bristol,Tennessee
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 2:28 pm
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Basically, the tuning get's it's name from the 1st and 7th string in the E-9th Tuning which is F#. The second tone and nineth tone are the same, only one octave above or below the E note. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 2:56 pm
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| What Joey said. |
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James Lutz
From:
Wisconsin
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 3:02 pm
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The D is the dom7 and the F# is the 2. 7 plus 2 equals 9. A 13th chord has in addition to the basic triad, a dom7 and a 6. 7 plus 6 equals 13.
Thus conclude musical arithmetic for today. Everyone have a great weekend. The sun is shining in Texas, the sky is blue, life is good. Had the pleasure of listening to brother Herb S last night, and the pleasure of picking with brother Bill Dearmore and his old push pull tonight. As I said, life is good. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 3:16 pm
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To summarize:
a Ninth chord is made up of the following degrees of the scale:
I III V bVII IX
those notes in the key of E are:
E G# B D F#
The open strings have all those notes, and one more, the D# .
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Archie Nicol R.I.P.
From:
Ayrshire, Scotland
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 4:21 pm
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I always thought of the guitar as having eight strings. Then strings one and two being added for the ease of playing chromatic scales. The way we pick the stings makes this logical. Thumb picks forward, fingers pick back....Ask B.E. I think it was his idea. Although, I believe the (chromatic) strings were originally at the bottom.
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 7:08 pm
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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but my knowledge of music theory is limited:
So, if the "D" string was not present, then the tuning would be called "E2nd?" I'm just trying to figure out why the F# is a 9th instead of a 2nd. It is the second note of the E scale, isn't it?
Or maybe the scale has nothing to do with it and it's just based on chord structure(?)  |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 9:49 pm
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WEll if the D note was gone; than the tuning would be a E major9, because the D# note is the Major 7th tone..ah.ha.
Well if you just had a E triad and no flat7th or maj7th; and had a F# in there, I would call it a E add9; or Bsus6 or F#sus9...ha.
What I don't understand is folks calling the D# and F# on the 1st and 2nd strings>"Chromatic"??? Chromatics are half tones; as although D# is half tone under E; F# is a whole tone above E.
Ricky |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 10 Dec 2004 11:49 pm
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i used to think like Jim Lutz that it was a 9th because a dom7 was included thus 7+2 = 9
it's but mere coincidence ? otherwise it's a 9th since it's the 2nd tone being added an octave higher. thus 9
the same applies to 11 & 13
EDITED: i forgot to mention, that the E9 tuning is 2 chords in one
you'll find a B (lower the Es)
busy as a B  [This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 11 December 2004 at 02:52 AM.] |
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John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Dec 2004 9:52 am
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Then why don't they call it E Major 9th ?
-John
------------------
www.ottawajazz.com |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:07 am
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| Well, I don't mean to sound dense, but I still don't understand why it's called E9th. You have two E's and two F#'s each a whole tone above the respective E's. I don't see where the 9th comes into the equation. I guess I need to take a course in music theory. |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:10 am
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quote:
What I don't understand is folks calling the D# and F# on the 1st and 2nd strings>"Chromatic"??? Chromatics are half tones; as although D# is half tone under E; F# is a whole tone above E.
Ricky
Ricky, I'm wondering the same thing. The only thing I can figure out is that maybe those strings were originally tuned differently, and the "chromatic" name just carried over(?) Would be interesting to know the real reason. |
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Joey Aguilera
From:
Whittier, California, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:40 am
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| Quote: |
| Well, I don't mean to sound dense, but I still don't understand why it's called E9th. You have two E's and two F#'s each a whole tone above the respective E's. I don't see where the 9th comes into the equation. I guess I need to take a course in music theory. |
The way I understand it and my music theory is pretty limited and sometimes warped but an E chord is the 1 3 & 5 tones of the major scale. You create chords by stacking intervals together so naturally you would keep going up from 5 to 9 which is F# to create a 9th chord and not down back to 2.
It just has to do with the scale degrees and if I understood your post correctly it sounds like you are trying to figure it out by the tones between the strings?
I. E X
II. F#
III. G# X
IV. A
V. B X ---> Major (E,G#,B)
VI. C
VII. D X ---> 7th (E,G#,B,D)
VIII.E
IX. F# X ---> 9th (E,G#,B,D,F#)
X. G#
XI. A
XII. B
[This message was edited by Joey Aguilera on 13 December 2004 at 09:58 AM.] |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 10:08 am
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Tom, don't get confused by dwelling on how many times a note is repeated, in different octaves, or if a particular note is above or below another.
The order of the notes has no bearing on the chord's name. Also how many occurences of the same note has no bearing on the chord's name.
If you change the order of the notes, you have a different inversion of the same chord. The chord's name remains the same.
My above post (starting with "To summarize:")
explains why the tuning is E9.
Playing the notes (low ot high):
B, D, E, F#, G#, B, E, G#, F#
is one way to make an E9 chord.
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 10:48 am
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......when I first began trying to decipher the E9th tuning, I asked a steeler who was playing E9 about what to do with those out of sync two top strings.... his advise was, to just ignor them and "just play"!
I'm still not sure what E9th is all about, but I'm sure that it serves a purpose, and I continue to try to learn how to do it!
www.genejones.com |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 11:41 am
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I think it was called E9th instead of EMay9th because of historical chronology.
When Bud Isaaks came up with that thing, it didn't have those top two strings... I think it didn't even have the high G#. So it was a 7th tuning (for the bottom D) with a 2nd (F#), which for what ever reason of musical theory becomes the 9th (one above the octave which is the 8th, so it's 9th).
Talking about history... and while Bud Isaaks is still around, I wonder what he really tried to achieve when he came up with that tuning? If he designed it on paper or in his head, if he fumbled around and just came across a funny sounding change or if it was that sound he really was going after. When one looks at the tuning from a different angle, it's a big -3rd/May3rd pumping machine of adjacent string intervals... a much used practice for non pedal players... (?)
... J-D |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 12:06 pm
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| I think Joey is right about the order not making a difference in naming the chords. Once a 7th is in a chord anywhere, any notes in addition to the major chord and the 7th will be named after the next octave. If more than one note is added after the 7th, the chord is named after the highest note in the next octave; e.g., E13 if the 6th in the top octave is added. Because the next note after the 7th is the 1st, counting up to the next note gives the same name as simply adding the next interval to 7. In addition, as mentioned above, Bud already had the 7th below the low E, and so adding the 2nd anywhere above that would create an E9 chord. Bud may have already had that 9th in his 8-string tuning. Finally, if the 9th hadn't been already present above the low E, it was eventually added as the 1st string on 10-string pedal steels. This would also make it an E9 tuning. And I'm like Ricky, the open strings (except for the flatted or dominant 7th) are all notes of the E scale. There are no chromatics (the five notes not included in the scale, which correspond to the black notes on a piano in the key of C). But you can get chromatic notes with pedals and levers. So it is an E9 tuning twice over, and you can get some chromatic notes on the pedal version. So I think just about everybody above is correct in some way. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 12:55 pm
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Awww heck...
Just keep your A B pedals down and call it A6
Don't play the second or ninth stings, or we'll have to call it A6 sus b5 ) |
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Tom Olson
From:
Spokane, WA
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Posted 13 Dec 2004 9:23 pm
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| Thanks guys for the explanation-- I think I'm actually understanding it. Makes better sense to me now with the additional info. |
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Bill C. Buntin
From:
Cleburne TX
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Posted 14 Dec 2004 8:05 am
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| Ricky I don't understand why they call it chromatic either. Chromatic is associated with half tones and the ability of an instrument to play in multiple diatonic keys. But if you play the E triad open then pickup string 2 (D#) which is the maj 7 interval, then pickup string 1 (F#) which is the 9th interval, that makes the chord Emaj9. If you then flat the 7 (D# to D)That turns the chord into E9. Without the 7 note, it is Eadd9. Hence this is why I believe its called the E9 tuning, because all of those notes are on the tuning. This is great discussion guys. This to me is what this forum is really all about. Best regards. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Dec 2004 10:10 am
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| So actually, if you are only refering to the open unpedaled strings, a universal (which I play) is an Emaj9/B6, because there is no 7th on the open strings. Umm...let's just pretend I didn't say that. I don't want to ever have to splain that to anybody. |
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Jay Jessup
From:
Charlottesville, VA, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2004 10:59 am
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| There are still many around that were here when the tuning was made popular and perhaps one of them will jump in at some point but I believe most of them that have some music training will admit that E9'th chromatic is not technically correct. E9'th is correct IMHO for a 8 stringer whose first string is G# or E and when the D# and F# were added someone just started calling them chromatic strings and in spite of the fact it wasn't tecnically correct it was an easy thing to remember and it just stuck. Not all steel players had Julliard degrees and as long as they each knew what the other was talking about it didn't really matter. The above is just a guess on my part but I think it will prove to be pretty close. |
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Bill C. Buntin
From:
Cleburne TX
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Posted 14 Dec 2004 2:24 pm
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| Most commercial pedal guitars tuned to E9 have the ability to "universally" play in B6. Its just not "officially" considered "universal" but all I have to do on my extremely common E9 10 string setup is throw the lever that lowers strings 4 and 8 and I've got a B6 tuning. But referring to open strings was what I based my E9 analogy on. |
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