Sho Bud Value

John Caldart · From: Wisconsin, USA

Im reposting this inquiry from a few weeks ago, adding more pictures. From some of your replies earlier, this appears to be a model 6140, as apparently the 6139's didn't have the 2 pots & switch. (I thought it to be a Maverick). The apparent serial number is 7406, I haven't been successful in finding info on this. I bought this used around 1973, 6 pedals, no knees. It was set up for E9, the 3 left pedals for the standard E9, but I couldn't tell you how the 3 right pedals were setup. Years ago I removed the pots/switch (Not sure what I was thinking then); I'm hoping I can find these as I would re-install them. I have to confess, as much as I love the sounds produced from a pedal steel, I never became very accomplished at playing, too many other life issues took over. I'm trying to determine a reasonable value in order to sell it, it's in nice shape and hopefully someone would make great music from it. Again, any input would be appreciated. Thanks, JC.

Dennis Brown · From: Gowen, Mi. USA

I sent you a email.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

This guitar appears to be from the late 60s/ very early 70s, the Baldwin era. This was before the Professional/Pro I/Pro II etc.

There is a list of later Sho-Bud serial numbers that starts at the beginning of the subsequent era with serial #1001 in March 1971 (it's here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1951049#1951049 ). Your guitar is earlier. The serial numbers used through the 70s skipped over the 7,000s, presumably because they had already used those numbers in the 60s. I've seen a few rumors around here that the 7,000s were "reserved" by the Jacksons for special guitars, but I've never seen anything to substantiate that.

Starting with the Professional, the pro models all had the raised cast aluminum changer/pickup housing instead of the earlier wood wrap around neck like yours.

It looks pretty well preserved. Do you still have all the pull rods and barrels? If complete and fully assembled this guitar should have decent value. It wouldn't be to tough to shift the ABC pedals over and add three knees using the other three existing racks. The historical purists will gasp I'm sure, but guitars are meant to played.

John Caldart · From: Wisconsin, USA

Thanks Ian, I do have the rods and barrels, still looking for the pots/switch. One individual said it may be worth up to $700.00 as is. JC

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

The racks from my '67;

_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Your guitar appears to be in great condition. As an E9th steel it would be more attractive with some knee levers. The rack-and-barrel knees are not readily available now. Having 6 pedals and no knees makes me wonder if it was originally set up for C6.

Dennis Waltman · From: Wisconsin, USA

Folks, I purchased this steel locally off Craigslist from John last evening. Nice guy and a beautiful steel that needs to be played. I'd appreciate guidance on these topics:

1. Best tuning for this steel. I'm new to PS but play dobro in G tuning and some lap steel in C#m and C6. I'd prefer not to add knee levels, keep it original and stick to one tuning.

2. How to set up the rods and mechanism for the above tuning. Basic direction such as which stings to set up to raise / lower for a given tuning are needed as I'm pretty green on this topic.

3. Should I reinstall the removed volume, tone and coil tap switch? I'd likely need to fabricate a face plate to cover the drill holes for the existing cover plate. Where can I find these parts? John indicated the other PU lead wire is under the coil tape on the PU.

I tuned it to E9 without any rods installed last night and it sounds great to my ears through a Fender volume / tone pedal into my Vibrolux with a 15 BW squeezed in the cabinet.

Thanks, Dennis

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

don't worry about the control switches unless it doesn't sound good without them.
that's a great little steel. i'd definitely try to scare up 3 levers and linkage and apply them to the 3 extra pedals. very simple. no intrinsic value in keeping it stock.
worth well over a grand.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

You can use barrels behind two-hole pullers knee levers.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Dennis Waltman · From: Wisconsin, USA

I do have six pull rods for the existing pedals. Is there a big disadvantage vs knee levers? The nice part is since I'm new to PS I would not have to relearn any knee motions.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The decision whether a change should go on a pedal or a knee depends on which changes it works with. If I had a 6 and 2 Bud, I'd add two more knees and use something like my copedent, but with the Bs to A# on P6 for use with the volume pedal foot.

_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

possible overkill 'once again'.
go easy on this guy. he's brand new.
this is meant for everyone who can't think basically.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Chris makes a good point.
Because the standard 4 knees work so well with the basic three pedals, I'd urge to start with 3 and 2,but prepare to add the other two knees.
Disregard the other three pedals, just put the A, B and C pedals on slots 2, 3 and 4. Add the other three pedals later.
Just because you have them doesn't mean you have to use them.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Or you could just set it up for C6 as it was when new. That's what I would do. No new parts required. Lots of good music in there. If you then decide you really want to learn E9 psg, there are always plenty of deals around on guitars that are already properly setup for that with 3 and 4, ready to go.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

My '67 was 6 pedals 2 levers, and it was set up as E9th. Kinda strange to play, but fun. Traded it to James, who converted it to 3 and 5, barrels behind two hole pullers. He said it came out great! I know it sounded awesome. Now I want another one! Got a Blues cope figured out for it.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ian, if he wants to play E9th, a C6th guitar isn't a helpful step
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

and it's only confusing to mention two hole pullers when the guitar already has a full set of rack and barrel parts.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Chris,

the two systems work easily together.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i know that but thought the op was new and didn't need excessive info since he already had enough stock parts for 3+3. maybe i was wrong.
i guess i ought to just stay out of everything and let everyone spew every little grain of knowledge
out so they can feel good about being so smart and helpful. sorry for trying to be reasonable.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"i guess i ought to just stay out of everything and let everyone spew every little grain of knowledge
out so they can feel good about being so smart and helpful. sorry for trying to be reasonable."
Oh come on Chris! Your points are reasonable, but so are others.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Dennis Waltman · From: Wisconsin, USA

I appreciate the responses and input from all. I'm not set on E9 or C6 but I'm leaning toward C6 for these reasons.
A. I'm a big fan of the honky tonk, Texas swing and early Helms styles which I understand use C6.

B. I have some limited C 6 experience with my D8 Magnatone

C. If I have all the components to use this Bud as a C6 guitar great!

So, what would it take in addition a set of strings gauged for C6 to get this up and running?

Are all 6 pedals recommended?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'd recommend, for C6th, the standard 5 pedals and a knee, plus another change.
Since I don't like using both feet, I'd put the standard P5 on a knee, probably RKL.
RKR would lower 3.
Pardon my laziness in not writing it up in chart form, but it's bedtime and I'm tired.
P1=P4 (4 and 8 to B)
P2=P6 (raise 2 to F and lower 6 to Eb)
P3=P7 (Raise 3 and 4 a whole step, to D and B respectively)
P4=P8 (lowers 10 to A, 9 to E and raises 7 to C#)
P5=raise 3 and 7 to C#
P6= raise 4 and 8 to Bb
RKL=P5 (lowers 5 to F#, raises 9 to F# and 10 to D)
RKR lowers 3 to B.
With just a 1/16 Allen wrench, you can change the pulls around very easily.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Dennis, here is an example of a "classic" C6 setup from b0b's archive that would work well on your guitar. Assuming you have enough barrels and rods of appropriate lengths, no new parts required.

A more modern setup would replace the high G on string one with a diatonic D note, but there are still plenty of players who prefer the old way. The older style/sound you mention a la Don Helms would have been non-pedal C6, but the pedal stuff that evolved out of that in the late 50s/early 60s likely would have used a copedent similar to this. You could put the string 3 lower shown on the knee on the right-most pedal so you can two-foot it.

Are you clear on how the rack and barrel system works? The little spring nub on the brass tuners goes against the rack and catches the edge of the it so you can tune the pedal pulls with the socket screws at the end plate. How many rods and barrels do you have? You would need at least 13 rods and 14 barrels for this copedent. If you look at the chart, just think of each of the vertical columns as one of the racks. Each space on the chart that has a note in it will require a barrel tuner, either to raise or lower per the chart. String 4 will require an intermediate barrel on the rod, which you would fine tune manually from underneath.

You will see once you get all the rods and barrels in place that there is a necessary relationship between the the adjustable pedal stops at the ends of the racks and placement of the barrels on the rods. The pedals need to have enough travel to be able to move the rack enough to achieve the desired pull, but still leave just a little looseness or slack in the rod when the pedal is released. The rods should never be tight when all the pedals are released. If they are, you probably need more pedal travel on those pulls.

It should be fairly intuitive to see where the longer and shorter rods need to go, and how the pulls tune up once you get the all the barrels in the right places. Strings 3, 9 and 10 will require both a raise and a lower rod, the others only need a raise rod. You should be able to find plenty of pictures for guidance on the forum and google.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Dennis, take or ship the guitar to a qualified steel guitar technician (Read the thread about UPS first,) have 3 pedal removed and 4 knee levers installed.

This will give you the standard E9 tuning that we all play. Your guitar appears to have been made before the tuning evolved. But there's no reason it can't be retrofitted to accommodate it.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

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