Ugly dobros?!

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

I visited Gruhn's Guitars in Nashville recently and of course enjoyed looking at and trying out several vintage dobros.

They sounded great but what a homely bunch of instruments! All beat up, scratched and plain brown color (as you might expect from a vintage dobro)....some were downright ugly!

Alright, before you answer "I don't care what it looks like, as long as it sounds good"...let me add, I also toured the Gibson factory where they make new Dobros, and let me tell you, those are things of beauty. They had a very light, natural mahogany Jerry Douglas model that was beautiful and sounded great, as well as a beautiful polished dark maple model, etc.

So the question is, why do we have to put up with junky-looking old dobros (and be afraid to refinish them)? We refinish and restore old steels, don't we?

p.s. you can't compare them to an old Martin or Gibson....I've never seen an ugly one of those!

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

Refinishing "junky old Dobro's" only decreases their vintage value. However, I will agree with you that some of the newer "Dobro's" have a much brighter, solid sound quality than many of those real old models. I have a 1934 model in good shape, but I am thinking of installing a new cone as the old one seems worn and tired out....it has also gathered a few dints along the way. Maybe a new cone will brighten this old beast up a bit...any comments ?

D Schubert · From: Columbia, MO, USA

George, before you replace the cone in your Dobro try a bone bridge saddle. The saddle and cone had sagged so much in my '39 Model 45 that I had to have a taller saddle made. My guitar tech talked me into bone instead of maple or maple/ebony, said he'd replace it for free with anything else, if I didn't like it. That was 2 years ago and I still like it -- made it louder and more authoritative without sounding stiff and new. Big improvement.

Regarding a refinish job -- just buy a new one and sell your old one to somebody who'll appreciate it. I have seen a number of old instruments that were absolutely ruined by a well-meaning finisher -- a thick coat of glossy poly-crap that looked like a C+ junior high shop project and deadened the sound to boot. It makes me sick to see it.

Geoff Brown · From: Nashvegas

I once talked to a couple of longtime pro dobro players about this subject and their opinions were simple and made a lot of sense to me.
Most of those old dobros were made of plywood. There just isn't a whole lot of change in terms of sound quality in these instruments over the years. A different animal entirely from say, a pre-war Martin or similar quality flattop that is made from tonewoods. Many of those dobros were made as cheaply as possible, and with the cheapest materials available (pearwood fretboards, for example). That's not to say that they didn't sound ok. Many of them did, and still do. But it's not surprising to me that dobros made today with better construction and materials sound better to many folks that those dobros of old. Personally,I'd rather take the $$ I'd drop on the "vintage vibe" of an old dobro and put it towards a well-built contemporary instrument made with tonewoods and Quarterman cones. Having said that about tonewoods, my personal preference would be one of Ted Smith's fibergass melobros, with the tonewood baffles. I was in Gruhn's a couple of months ago, and there were a lot of old dobros there. Many were pretty beat looking roundnecks, had warped necks and looked to have new nuts put on them, and were selling for $600-$800, as I recall.

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Geoff,
I guess I forgot to add that every one I saw at Gruhn's was $1500-$2000.....

Mike D · From: Phx, Az

Vintage guitars aren't for everybody. Lot's of folks (like me) LIKE ugly old, crazed, scratched up vintage instruments.

If you don't like old ones buy a new one, for 1500-2000.00 you're getting into Beard (and other makers) territory.

So leave the old ones alone for the vintage fools and get yourself a pretty one

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Like Mike said, a vintage instrument is not for everyone. And, here's my unsolicited opinion

:

A vintage instrument has a story to tell... gigs it's played, road trips it's taken, barroom stuff it's seen... and when a player assumes the role of caretaker of that instrument for his period of time, what he plays and does with the instrument contributes to that story the old gal has. The owner becomes part of the timeline. This can contribute to the music of the player, if he is inspired by the axe he's sitting behind. This is the way it is for me with vintage instruments. I play vintage and own vintage predominantly.

Some guys, very fine musicians so no flames on them, would prefer the confidence, security, playability and cosmetic beauty of a new horn and don't really care about the timeline. This category would include most, but not all, of the steel guitar heavyweights who play the steel shows and record in the studios and are our heroes. The timeline for these axes is just beginning.

It's about what you need, what you like, and how you visualize yourself in the string of history. Each point of view is valid.

I have a 1928 Model 55 Dobro in near-mint condition. I think it's beautiful. It sounds like 1928, which is a sound I've never heard from a modern Dobro. That sound may be out there, but I've yet to hear it.

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Geoff Brown · From: Nashvegas

I agree, Herb. I have an early '30's dobro. It's scratched, marred, nicked up and so on. I love the thing. I also know the complete history of this instrument, which is unusual for something...anything of this age. I look at it all the time, and wonder what stories it would tell if it could talk. A priceless thing, indeed. I also have some vintage amplifiers (some prewar) that I feel equally connected to.
But for me, I don't feel any more inspired to play better with a vintage instrument in my hands as I would with something made yesterday. When it comes to playing, it's about what sounds best to me for the situation. If it's a vintage dobro, great. If it's a Melobro or a Beard, so be it. Or a new Fender cyber Twin, or a blackface Twin. Nothing is less inspiring to me than to be playing an instrument that doesn't convey what I'm trying to do, regardless of its vintage. I treasure the vintage instruments and equipment I have. I also realize that they don't neccisarily sound better (or worse) than anything I own that is of recent design.I understand your feelings in regard to perhaps playing better with a piece of history in your hands... but for me personally, I don't approach playing that way

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

Thanks for the advice about the bridge saddle. I'll go that direction first. I could never refinish my old beast because it has a beautiful walnut veneer. Even though it has a few bruises, it's almost as old as I am and Lord knows I have managed to obtain a few bruises along the way...builds character. But the poor old girl needs some internal work, so I will start with the bridge.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Nicely stated Herb. Likewise, I prefer vintage instruments, however, I bought a new Paul Beard dobro, one of the expensive ones, and I love it, It doesn't sound like anything else I have. It has a fuller sound with a touch of whine and a lot of variation in tone depending on where I pick.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 01 July 2001 at 10:53 AM.]

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

I'm not knocking vintage instruments of any sort....we all know they have both a style and sound different from a new model. I certainly accept and respect that fact.
The point I'm tryng to make, and soliciting responses for, is: we refinish and restore old Emmons and ShoBuds all the time, why isn't this mentality extended to old dobros?
We all agree we would never do this to an old tonewood Martin or Gibson, but since a dobro ususally isn't made like those, can't we refinish an old plywood dobro?
Can't we re-chrome or nickel the metal parts without feeling we've "destroyed" the vintage value?
Antique cars are worth a LOT more when they're restored.
It was just kind of an odd contradiction seeing brand new beautiful dobros and old beat up dobros for the same price on the same day, that's all!

Mike D · From: Phx, Az

The answer is....No! What the guitar is made of doesn't have anything to do with it, plywood or B.Rosewood or a plated National if it's not original it's a re-fin.
You can "feel" anyway you want about it, and if you intend on keeping it go ahead but it's value will diminish.

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Tony
I see where you're coming from. The answer is that, within the "vintage" framework, there is yet 2 schools of thought... the "player" mentality vs. the "collector" mentality. Keep in mind that we're not talking new instruments, just within the vintage scene.

The "hard-core" collector must have everything be as close to original as possible, and cares not for the current playability of the instrument. This is most evident in the world of 6-string guitars, both acoustic, electric, and arch-top, Dobros, and mandolins. They are more interested in pristine examples, museum pieces, and the like. The instrument must be playable, but the more un-modified it is, the better.

The "player" mentality-type also prefers the vintage axe, but will put-up with, or even prefer, modifications that make the axe more enjoyable or easy to play. For example, a guy of this type might really dig a '56 Telecaster, original neck, case, and pickups but with a pro refin. body because the vibe is way cool and the horn sounds fantastic; the "collector" would say "sorry, pass on that one... refinished."

Right now, most accumulators of steel guitars are steel guitar players primarily and collectors secondarily. So generally, if a steel player finds an original '64 Emmons, most likely it has 8 pedals and no knee levers. To enjoy the sound on a modern bandstand, a player would want at least 4 knee levers, so a "restored, knee levers added" Emmons is right now more desireable than a clean no-levers original.

Pre-war Dobros have desireability for the "collector" mentality and so should not be refinished unless the original finish is so beat up, so destroyed, that only a "player" would have interest in it. In that case, do whatever you'd care to do with the horn and enjoy the results.

Here's a situation I found myself in recently. I acquired a '65 Emmons S-10 "wraparound" with original 6 pedals and no knee levers, set up C6 (the way it came from the factory). BIG QUESTION: Did I want to keep this as a 'collector,' or a 'player?' I voted 'player' and changed the set-up to E9, 3&5. It can be returned back to 6 pedals if necessary, but most players who have seen it have dug it as a way-cool sounding E9 guitar and like it better the way it currently is.

It's all about what personality types are in the market you, as a buyer or seller, are dealing with, IMHO.

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chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Last summer I rebuilt Maureece Anderson's S-10 '59 Bigsby. The top of the guitar is original, the mechanics are not. This guitar had been so butchered before I got it (even the changer fingers had been hacked in half and 'married' to a 'birdcage' changer with bent over nails) that I felt I had carte blanche to turn it into a player. It now has 6&4, Bigsby guitars didn't have knee levers, and it is a smooth player with all of the original Bigsby sound qualities.
Did I increase the value or diminish it? This would be a more pertinant question if I intended on selling it, which I don't.

I had a friend out on tour years ago who saw a guy somewhere in the south playing a Jackson guitar with a Bigsby neck on it, now that's criminal.
Damn, I forgot where I was again. pretend you didn't read the words pedals and knee levers.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 01 July 2001 at 04:30 PM.]

Paul Warnik · From: Illinois,USA

Herb-I agree with you very much on this post-I wonder where that old '28 model 55 came from??? Chas-you do such wonderful work on steel guitars-Who in the world would have hacked up such a fine instrument like that???I know Recce didn't

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Paul
Thanks, man. I knew you'd see it my way!

My 28 Model 55 came from a very heavy hitter in the vintage guitar market, a friend I've dealt with on several deals and has always been a pleasure to work with. You might know him, he lives in your neighborhood.

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Ron · From: Hermiston, Oregon

Ron builder of the Robro that Norman plays.

George

Your dobro more than likely dose not need a new cone or spider. The bridge in the old ones are maple and I find any thing you put in will sound good. I pefer hard like alum. or bone ar corian. The cone is probly been in since new and most people dont know haw to set one up so they never do it right. The cone has to be fit the sound well and lay flat with no air under it . Set it in the well and put pressure on the center of the cone than tap all around the cone and see if there is a rattle where it is not fitting tight . this has to be right. Next the spider has to set with all legs touching with a small presser on the bridge with one hand and tap each leg and see if it is tuching all legs. You can put enough pressure to make it touch but it will not work right. The screw on the spider is to be when the strings are tuened to pich loosened untill it starts to rattle then tighten untill when played hard it will not rattle and then turn no more than on half turn more . this can be tightened later if it startes to rattle. Most all old cones have been tightened to tight and the cone probly will be deformed aroune the middle ridge. This can be fixed but a new cone is easest. All the Flinthill Johnson Regal that I have looked at have a bad fitting sound well and when fixed as I havd said the all will sound verry good. I hape I have helped you.

Ron

George Keoki Lake · From: Edmonton, AB., Canada

Yes Ron, you certainly have helped and I appreciate the interest shown. I'll try to follow your instructions when I get around to tearing the old girl apart. Just too busy at the moment. Thanks a lot and again, most appreciated.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

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[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 May 2002 at 08:52 AM.]

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