Nylon tuners

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

It seems that the raises on my all pull changer guitar, with nylon tuners, keep going sharp. Has anyone else noticed this?

My theory is that the nylon tuner is compressing, which causes the pedal to travel further and thus pull the string sharp.

Same thing seems to be happening with the lowers, but in reverse; i.e., the lowers go flat as the nylon tuner compresses.

Does this make any sense? And if it does, will the tuner eventually reach maximum compression and thus be relatively stable?

And further, if that's what going on with nylon tuners, isn't there some other material that these tuners could be made of that would compress less?
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

I've found that it's usually the lever stop giving rather than the tuners. A lot of the stops are made from aluminum and not beefy at that and when you press hard against them they give and allow the string to travel further than intended.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Paul, I've said that all along that the nylon compresses some and again, according to temperature. And it also wears quicker than metal would. I think it would be an improvement to an all pull guitar to have aluminum tuning nuts but would take more machining with threads on rods and nuts, therefore driving cost up.
Dave, you are also correct. If pedal or lever stops are some softer material than metal, they would also give causing tuning problem. The tuning of an all pull guitar is the pedal or the lever stop, if that moves, so does tuning.
Most people think that temperature differences effect the strings but that is not 100% true. It may little but most is the long rod between the stop or bell crank and the changer.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

I'm unclear in my own thinking regarding the nylon tuners compressing. If they do compress, would that cause the raises to go sharp, as I previously suggested, or would it cause the raises to go flat, because the rod is not pulling the finger the full distance?

Obviously I'm not an engineer, so I'm open to hearing differing opinions.

Dave's comments about the pedal and lever stops makes perfect sense. I had to rework a knee lever on my all pull guitar because the pedal/lever stop, as I first installed it, was not stable and I couldn't get consistent tuning.

It seems odd to me that I keep having to tune down the raises at the nylon tuners (and the converse for the lowers). Not a huge amount, but it's noticeable and a consistent pattern. I can easily play a whole set, and even a whole night without problems. But after several days of playing the raises go sharp and the lowers go flat.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

Had one that did that..it was the nylon 'self-adjusting' as I played..each engagement, it would turn a tiny amount. I guess the end wasn't completely flat. Fixed it some thread locker.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

If the nylon was compressing you would have the opposite problem, raises would go flat as the effective rod length increases. Seems more likely something else in the pull train shifting, flexing, binding, etc. I assume you've you ruled out the nut rollers?

Another thing to consider is that the end of the nylon nuts are cut square. As they pull on the scissor, it's angle changes such that only one edge of the nylon nut is contacting the scissor. If the point in contact is one of the points of the hex, it will pull the scissor slightly more than if it is against the flat of the hex.

When you look at how far the scissors actually move you can see it doesn't take much to affect an audible de-tuning. Consider that most tuning rods are threaded 4-40 or 5-40, 40 threads per inch. We're usually dealing with 1/8 or 1/4 turn variations, which amounts to 1/80" - 1/160" change in rod length -- not much. Even the vertical movement of the rod within the scissor hole can produce some slight variation.

Some guitars have round spacers, like old MSAs. My BMI has little aluminum barrel spacers with a rounded bullet nose between the nylon and the finger. The holes have a slight indentation and the round nose of the spacer contacts the finger consistently at any angle within its normal range. This has always seemed like a pretty good idea to me, seems like one could get the same result by simply rounding the contact ends of the nylons a bit.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

The all pull steel I currently talking about has spacers between the nylon tuners and the fingers of the changer. Those spacers appear to also be nylon. They are round like what Ian described on his BMI. I suppose I could try to locate some suitable tubing, probably aluminum, and cut out some spacers and see if that made any difference.

Also, the pedal stops on this guitar look fairly sturdy to me. They appear to be steel screws into a substantial looking aluminum piece. Not real sure of the correct terminology for the various parts.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Diehl · From: Mechanicsville, MD, USA

Problem with using metal spacers is it may eat into the hole in the finger eventually and then you'll have another level of problems. Sometimes those stops look good but push against the lever after it hits and you may see how it bends to allow the finger to move further than it should. You have a lot of power in your legs, more than your hands so that's why you have may have to push with good pressure to see this bending. With those tuners being essentially round, it would take quite a bit to compress then as you're suspecting.. not saying theoretically it couldn't but... there's always exception to every rule.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Unless the nylon tuners are damaged, I'd rule out any compression in that end. And they have to be pretty loose on the rods to rotate out of set position, and if so they should be replaced.

I agree with Dave Diehl in that metal spacers may do more harm than good in the long run. I suggest you use nylon spacers, or no spacers, to avoid damage and uneven surfaces on those scissors.

Pull-rods do expand and contract with temperature, so that may cause need for retuning after a while.
Hope you do not have any alluminum rods in there, as they are really bad if your steel is exposed to even quite small temperature variations ... I know because I put in a couple of those aluminum rods on one of my steels, and even quite short ones are hopeless.

As for pedal/lever stops; they may or may not be strong enough, and it also depends on where they are attached - worth checking.
There's a reason (one of several) why I like my Dekleys, as all stops on those are attached to the frame and definitely won't give much under varying pressure.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

My nylon tuners wear due to large holes in the changer fingers.
I'm adding small metal washers to plane the surface, making tuning more precise.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

Thanks for all the input. Kevin Hatton directed me to a website, McMaster Carr, that sells spacers and hex nuts made with lots of different materials and sizes. Almost certainly something from there would work.

But I am hesitant to be switching to metal for the reasons some of you have mentioned. I'm not sure the nylon I currently have is even the problem. It seems to be the industry standard so it's hard to think it's somehow deficient. And I sure don't want to mess up the changer fingers/scissors. The steel in question is far too new, and has far too little playing time, to think anything is worn out. Maybe this experiment should be done by someone else on a much older steel.

I am still curious why nylon seems to be the material of choice for tuning nuts for all pull changer steels. Why not use steel or brass or aluminum? Emmons push pulls have metal against metal contacts and they hold up very well.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Dave Meis · From: Olympic Peninsula, Washington, USA

I think if they were metal, you'd have to use a lot of thread locker like you see on the PPs. The nylon 'squeezes' on and stays put (hopefully!).

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Paul, your problem isn't "compressing" of the nylon tuners. If that were the case, then that problem would have been discovered (and rectified) decades ago by builders. How serious is the problem, in cents?

Bill Ferguson · From: Milton, FL USA

"My nylon tuners wear due to large holes in the changer fingers.
I'm adding small metal washers to plane the surface, making tuning more precise."

If you are concerned about the tone of your steel, then don't put metal washers against the changer fingers. It will definitely affect the tone.

After over 40 years of playing, I have never encountered the problem you are experiencing.

Along with others here, unless your tuning nuts are not the correct ones for your steel (and I doubt this), the problem is somewhere else.

Your steel may be flexing (cabinet drop), even though this does not normally happen with a knee lever.

Check to be sure all support screws on the brackets are tight and have someone visually look at your knee levers when you engage them to see if the stop is flexing.

There are many factors involved.

You say your steel is fairly new. Why not contact the manufacturer and ask for help.
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