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Topic: I need special help with ear training |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2016 8:29 pm |
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...and hearing chord changes specifically.
I've read about how to do it and also other people's techniques for doing so, but it doesn't relate to me for some reason. It seems most people do it by 'feel'; hearing the change in 'tension' or associating the chord change with an affect in their mind... by that I mean associating it with a certain feeling or idea. That doesn't work as well for me.
It's been bugging me so I've put some thought into why it is. I don't know whether it's a matter of me not having a musical mind or a matter of me coming into music differently than most people who teach it.
For one thing, I know that I experience cross-contamination between timbre and pitch, such that the same chord change on two different instruments won't seem as relatively similar to me than for other people. Even changing the key of a chord change can make it 'feel' different enough to me for me to be slow to recognize it. In fact, when I hear the same song done in a different key, it often takes on a different emotional character for me. Also, the same chord change going up or down to a different inversion of the chord also 'feels' different to me in away that it doesn't for most people.
I don't have a problem with pitch or intonation. If I concentrate hard enough on a chord change, I can usually figure out which notes are moving in which direction and figure it out that way. However, that's way too slow and exhausting to do in practice.
I think another reason could be that when I was a teenager, I developed a taste for unorthodox and sophisticated music, and that this messed up my ear. For example, I really liked Radiohead, who seem to make it a point to test your the limits of your ears:
https://youtu.be/3SZ1WpzBr9E
https://youtu.be/lAF8D0ugyVk
Essentially, before I learned chord theory, my ears learned to be comfortable with the unusual and complex. Everyone says that the V chord wants to resolve to the I chord, but to me, depending on the context a few other chords with notes in common could feel equally or more 'natural' for the V chord to go to. When the V chord is being played, I don't hold my breath waiting for the I chord.
Listening to that kind of music has also given me an aversion to chord changes that are too predictable. I've since moved on to listening to music with more typical music theory, but the aversion to predictability remains. Lately, I've become deeply fascinated by phrasing, especially vocal phrasing like you hear from Willie Nelson and Merle Haggard.
I've been using a website to help me: http://tonedear.com/ear-training/chord-progressions, and if I stick with it, accuracy improves. However, it never gets perfect, it's very slow to become intuitive, and the retention is lacking. I feel that if you truly 'get it', that it you should be able to do it perfectly and without much effort.
If it has to come down to just rote learning and pounding it into my head, then it may not be worth it for me. I deeply enjoy music and wouldn't want to ruin it for myself by turning it into something dry and sterile. In fact, that attitude may be a big part of the problem for me too. I like to think of music as something holistic and almost magical. I resist reducing it down to its components. I feel that many great musicians do that and end up creating music with little artistic value... they build it from 'components' with faith in tried-and-true music theory instead of developing a vision of the 'whole'.
One comparative strength that I have over some other musicians is that I have a better sense of how instruments and sounds go together. I'm not mindless about it. I'm the kind of steel player that will happily sit out an entire song if I don't think my instrument can contribute anything. I don't know if this is a yin to my yang of not being intuitive about chord changes, but I guess it could be.
So what I'm asking is twofold:
1) Is there a better method for a guy like me to pound chord changes into my head?
2) Is this symptomatic of me just not having a musical mind? I've already kind of made up my mind that this could be the case. But I wouldn't know how to reconcile it with the fact that I deeply love music and can put together an accompaniment just fine once I figure out the chords. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 3:38 am
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You're confusing musical taste with learning the sounds of music. In the shed is where you get all the sounds into your head and then it becomes easier to hear and identify. But practicing in a disciplined manner at least a few hours a week will build your ear. I don't think many people really consider this when they poopoo working on scales and subsequent harmony. I think it is a matter of starting from the beginning and working through material (whether guitar, piano, what have you) progressively.
A big part of hearing chord changes for me is listening to the bass. Hearing chords when the bassist is playing roots is simple, but when the bassist is involved in creating inversions, then it becomes more challenging. Listening to Bach is a big help in this.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Andrew Roblin
From:
Various places
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 4:08 am
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Thanks for the link, Curt.
I just took a quick look, but that looks like a great place to learn ear-training. Just stick with it. You'll get it.
You might also spend some time jamming with recorded music you don't know well. Listen to a verse and chorus, try to identify the changes, then play along.
Remember to have fun, and try not to be self-critical. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 7:14 am
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If you have a pile of charts done in letters, re-write them in numbers.
Some of that will rub off to your ears. |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 8:20 am
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Excellent course from Jeff Newman.
Play What You Hear / Hear What You Play
Learn how to use the Nashville Number System. Full of all kinds of chord progressions and several ways to get around in them. The Chord Dictionary Companion shows where all the chords are and how to make them on the E9th tuning. This course works for any instrument! The perfect practice aid.
http://www.jeffran.com/courses.php?content=AudioCourses
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 10:16 am
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To get the usual suspects chords in a diatonic progression you can narrow it down by keeping the root note and a half step down in your ear.
In a I IV V progression
If you can sing/hear the root note after the chord changes it is:
IV chord
If you can sing/hear the half step down or 7th after the chord changes it is:
V
If there are more chords in the tune the usual suspects can be guesstimated like this:
If you can sing/hear the root note after the chord changes it is:
IV chord or ii or vi
If you can sing/hear the half step down or 7th after the chord changes it is:
V chord or iii or vii
Once you can hear that the variations become more easy to identify.
Just sing the root note while you play and decide if it works or that you need to sing the major 7th and you can narrow it down pretty fast. It is an easy way to get a working foundation.
_________________
Bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 10:23 am
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Curt, I think you're over-analyzing. There are all different kinds of music, and some people just gravitate to different styles. The Radiohead examples you mentioned are, to me, are more atmospheric in nature. The music is vague, ethereal, but the vocal lines are overly simplistic and hard (for me) to follow. It's like they threw in lots of chords and EFX, but didn't really care much about the melody or meaning. Indeed, the vocals are often really washed out by all the "spacey" sounds going on. I can't see those as songs that you'd walk down the street humming to yourself, they're too moody and claustrophic. Not to say that they aren't valid, or that someone is weird for liking them, but their appeal is not really universal (though I often hear that type of stuff nowadays in movie soundtracks).
If you like that type of stuff, then play it, learn it, and create it. Don't worry about not understanding or liking more conventional music. We all hear with different ears and minds, so for the time being, just go with your emotions and see how far it takes you.  |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 11:04 am
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The nuts and bolts of ear training are exactly the same for all sorts of music. If you are unable to transcribe simple music then you are also unable to transcribe unusual or complex music.
Learning what you are doing will only increase your enjoyment and ability to express yourself. The only drawback is that it is hard work. So put in the hours and become a better musician or accept your current limitations.
BTW:
The inability to tell the difference between timbre and pitch is a serious weakness. If you get past it you will increase your perception and enjoyment of music well beyond what you can experience now.
_________________
Bob |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 11:29 am
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| I feel that if you truly 'get it', that it you should be able to do it perfectly and without much effort. |
To me, in music as in life, there is no it to get, or at least not a singular one, as previous posts attest.
The Radiohead 'Knives' followed a descending bass until the end of a phrase, at which point an out of scale chord occurs.
At that point you dissemble the chord and see how it fits. You can't do that perfectly and without effort.
Like Mike, I keep the bass in mind with the melody. They mainly delineate the chord. Harmonies follow, or not.
And I agree on Bach. Listening to the basic Preludes you hear all the changes and it trains your ear to follow them. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 3:54 pm
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| I'm happy to see that no one has said it's supposed to be intuitive. That's the part that makes me feel like I just don't get it. Not so much the ability to identify the individual notes in the scale, but to 'feel' the chord change in terms of the flavor of tension it creates or resolves within the chord progression. That's what I'd really like to be able to do without thinking about it. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 6:39 pm
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Baby steps. Honestly. Diatonic harmony in your head until it is second nature to hear where things are moving. Secondary dominants and harmonic functions. These things help to develop your ears and that sense of knowing where things are moving, and being able to identify and reconcile more challenging material.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 7:44 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
BTW:
The inability to tell the difference between timbre and pitch is a serious weakness. If you get past it you will increase your perception and enjoyment of music well beyond what you can experience now. |
We might be talking about different things. What I'm talking about is how chord recognition for me is much easier for me if it's steel guitar instead of something else, like a piano. When you're trying to base chord perception on feel, other variables such as an instrument's unique timbre characteristics can interfere because they can activate some of the same mental triggers. For example, imagine trying to identify the chords implied my differently tuned drums. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 25 Apr 2016 8:47 pm
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There is no "feel" involved with pitch recognition. It is a learned skill. For me feel comes in when I'm not sure what is going on. Like on the bandstand playing a tune I have never heard before and I'm not sure what the bass player is playing. It may be a IV chord but that doesn't seem quite right so I go with a two minor.
As far as being able to identify chords by ear goes there are many ways to guess right based on typical things that usually happen in whatever form of music is playing. The best way is to be able to identify the notes being played and therefore know what chords and voicings the different players are using.
I still practice and use that little half step trick all the time. It really helps if I need to learn a song fast without having access to my steel.
Start by singing the root note along with whatever music happens to be playing around you during the day. Once you feel confident that you are singing the root and not the fifth add the half step down note when the root doesn't sound right. You will be well on your way.
Once you have a firm grasp on the root note of a chord progression a sorta feel comes into play. Is the progression at rest or does it seem like it wants to go someplace..Stuff like that. BUT.... without really knowing what the root is attaching a feel to a chord won't help much.
_________________
Bob |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2016 5:58 am
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| forget all this and just learn to play by listening to the recordings of the masters. when you can play the tunes, then you might want to figure out what you are playing.....or you might not. |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Apr 2016 4:36 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
| I'm happy to see that no one has said it's supposed to be intuitive. That's the part that makes me feel like I just don't get it. Not so much the ability to identify the individual notes in the scale, but to 'feel' the chord change in terms of the flavor of tension it creates or resolves within the chord progression. That's what I'd really like to be able to do without thinking about it. |
It is learned. Some learn faster than others, some have better teachers than others but the more you work at it, the better you get.
As far as "feeling" the changes -- there are typical moves in various types of music so if you learn them, you recognize them and you recognize their variants, so you don't have to think about it. Not so much intuition as memory.
E.g, to use the one Radiohead song I actually know, "Creep" has a very common and distinctive opening I - III move popular in a lot of early 20th century blues & pop, like "Nobody knows you when you're down and out" and "Abilene". Also used in "On the Road again". It also has a distinctive IV -iv m move used in a zillion Beatles songs. If you are familiar with those changes, you'll "feel" them when they occur in "Creep"
If you know "Blue eyes"/"It wasn't God who made Honky-Tonk Angels", a blues progression, the sound of a ii-V-I progression, the sound of major to relative minor, and a few others, you will "feel" the changes in a lot of music.
I also found using solfege syllables (do re mi etc.) to be excellent for ear training.
Bob Hoffnar's suggestion makes a lot of sense to me. Something similar is to work on recognizing when the "I" or "1" chord is played and not worrying about the rest. Then when the "V" or "5" chord is played.
Of course some music is easy and some is harder, and sometimes your ears are working well and sometimes not so well. So don't be discouraged by irregular progress. |
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Michael Haselman
From:
St. Paul
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Posted 27 Apr 2016 5:21 pm
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Curt, Jamey Aebersold has an excellent ear training course that's quite reasonable, probably on Amazon. I've taken it a couple times and it really helps hearing jazz type chords such as m7b5 and 9th, etc. Highly recommended. Always good for a refresher too. More jazz oriented, but the more jazz stuff you know the better you'll be at any style.
_________________
Mullen RP D10, Peavey NV112, Hilton volume. Hound Dog reso. Piles of other stuff. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 Apr 2016 5:57 am
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| forget all this and just learn to play by listening to the recordings of the masters. when you can play the tunes, then you might want to figure out what you are playing.....or you might not. |
Bill, that's the way I did it, more or less. Copy, cut and paste, invert and rearrange, and play what sounds good.  |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2016 7:11 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| forget all this and just learn to play by listening to the recordings of the masters. when you can play the tunes, then you might want to figure out what you are playing.....or you might not. |
Bill, that's the way I did it, more or less. Copy, cut and paste, invert and rearrange, and play what sounds good. |
its the old school pre internet way. i think the time you actually spend listening and picking out and listening and picking out for untold hours like we did back in the 60s trains your ear in other ways also. you hear the bass line...the drums...all the other backing that goes into a group performance and you pick up things from that.
the internet has changed everything in the amount of music info thats there for students and for advanced players. |
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Bryan Daste
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2016 8:02 am
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| forget all this and just learn to play by listening to the recordings of the masters. when you can play the tunes, then you might want to figure out what you are playing.....or you might not. |
I think transcribing or just learning licks, solos, etc. is invaluable practice, but not to the total exclusion of ear training and understanding the music theory behind what you're hearing/playing. In fact, both those things to me make it much easier to learn by ear!
_________________
http://pedalsteelpodcast.wordpress.com |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2016 11:10 am
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Curt, all the replies here offer good ideas and pointers.
In my E9 101 teaching curriculum, ear training is a big part of my overall goal of training students to become good musicians first and foremost, that includes hearing intervals so you can track down melodies and bass lines. Plus all the yummy steel stuff every new player must start to get a handle on.
My course is essentially "Getting Ready for the Bandstand," on the E9 tuning.
Here are forum threads with many nice comments from my students:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=300753
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2468417#2468417
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=283937&highlight=
Holler if I can help. I do have several openings now as a few students have recently "graduated."
All best,
John McClung
Pedal Steel Lessons, Casuals, Sessions
Olympia, WA 98512
Email & PayPal fees – steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net
Easy PayPal link: paypal.me/JohnMcClung
Website – http://steelguitarlessons.com
Skype name: professortwang
Cell & text: 310-480-0717
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2016 3:39 pm
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| Thanks everyone! John, I sent you a PM. I've done that ear training exercise on that website I linked to and I'm improving. I think that those of you who said that listening for pitch instead of feeling the building/resolving of tension are probably right. |
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steve takacs
From:
beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)
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Scott Malchow
From:
Minnesota, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2016 5:31 pm
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Curt- I just stumbled on this thread and am jumping in late- Helloooo! Is anyone still here?
I would love to speak with you in person about this.
Simply put, ear training in music is not a matter of rote learning and cramming your brain
with facts.
I'll use the linguistic metaphor: In musical harmony (just like written and spoken
language) we learn much by a simple mechanism. Repetition.
And what follows is that 'repetition = recognition' over time.
Using this concept, think of how you are 'reading' this post. You are probably 'decoding' it
more quickly that I could say it. You are not 'sounding out' the words like a 1st grader, you are 'recognizing' them. Music, harmony, intervals, etc work the same way.
Does it take time? yes. Does it take work? yes.
BUT I assure you it is NOT as daunting as you think.
Let me encourage you by saying that you will NEVER regret bringing ear training and
harmonic theory knowledge into your music. NEVER.
Again, I would be glad to meet with you to help you along.
Maybe a beer or 2 could be involved....
_________________
In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.
~ Eric Hoffer, philosopher and author 1902-1983 |
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