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Topic: 1. Vibrato - 2. Right hand position |
Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 2:49 pm |
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I've been noticing quite a bit of difference between players when it comes to these two topics.
I like to kind of slide my bar for vibrato rather than the "roll" technique I see used by others. What do you think is the proper way to perform vibrato?
Another preference is Right hand position. I was recently corrected by a seasoned steel player as to where I should be picking the strings. I was picking around the 18th/19th fret. He informed me that I should rest the heal of my hand right at the Pickup. Again Where do you place your hand and pick at? Thanks
Btw I do notice an improvement in tone since moving my hand back. Obviously brighter but also clearer.
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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 3:28 pm
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| Only an opinion here, but both styles of vibrato you've mentioned, have their place. My pedal steel teacher emphasized that I roll the bar...only to drill the technic into my playing, I suspect? As for where to place you picking hand, I prefer to place it nearer the pickup for similar reasons you've expressed. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 4:07 pm
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I totally disagree with the suggestion that you should rest the heel of your right hand on the pickup, and only pick close to the pickup. That's really limits your ability to play the upper strings, and block them effectively. And how do you play the lower strings if your hand is resting on them? Everything would be muted all the time.
Every player that I've ever seen that rests their hand in that manner cannot effectively palm block. And good pick blockers also don't do this. The hand should float above the strings.
Look carefully at videos of the great steel players; i.e., Paul Franklin, Buddy Emmons, Buddy Charlton, Tommy White, etc., etc. You won't see them resting the heel of their hand on the pickup. And you will frequently see them picking up around the 18th and 19th frets. You get different tones depending on where you pick. That's a good thing. Not something to be avoided.
Be careful who you listen to.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 4:11 pm
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Roll for singer-type vibrato, as a note sustains. It feels and sounds more natural.
The shimmy is different, and has its place.
I think it sounds a bit brittle playing "against the pickup", choosing to pick a couple inches over, most of the time. For certain effects, I'll move either way. My Pete Anderson baritone Tele licks, I pick between pickup and changer.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 4:29 pm
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What the others say (write) ... and I pick as close as possible to the bar when playing "Blackbird" ...  |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 6:22 pm
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Either I misread/misinterpreted ...:"heel of the hand at the pickup". The back of my hand is just left of the left edge of the pickup, my picks line up around the 23-24th fret...sorry if my confusion led to your confusion?
"Be careful who you listen to"--great advice! |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 24 Mar 2016 6:47 pm
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Edward: I was not meaning to sound like I was criticizing your initial posting. I was addressing the advice given to the original poster. My apologies for not being clear.
I do see now that I perhaps read more into the purported advice than was really given. Using the pick-up as a reference for where the hand should be when picking is okay, but not particularly important. However, telling someone to rest the right hand on the pickup is terrible advice. That's a hand position seen in many beginner's playing. Any good teacher should help the student get past such a hurdle.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 3:14 am Re: 1. Vibrato - 2. Right hand position
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| Jeff Metz Jr. wrote: |
What do you think is the proper way to perform vibrato?
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Where do you place your hand and pick at? |
Both methods of vibrato are "proper". As for where to pick, it depends where the bar is. If you stay in one spot, the harmonic content will vary as you move the bar. If you pick around the 18th fret, then when the bar's at the 6th you'll be generating no even harmonics, which is great if you want to sound mellow, but no amount of force will brighten it. On the other hand if you stay near the bridge, the lower frets will sound thinner.
If you watch violinists (as distinct from fiddlers) they bow closer to the bridge when they go high on the finger board. To get a consistent tone, ideally we should track the bar position with our right hand in order to hit the string in the same proportionate place. It would be interesting to know how many folk actually do that, either consciously or not.
I just checked, and when I'm on the 3rd fret my fingers are around the 24th. As I come up through 8 & 10 I retreat to where my thumb's at 24. When I go very high my hand is on the finger tops. This seems reasonable but is it normal?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 4:30 am
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| No need to apologize, Paul? I didn't take offense to your comment at all, I really feel that's great advice! I do think we(newer players) can benefit from a live instructor...Jeff, you've got some good questions here, why not ask the person teaching these methods? |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 5:13 am
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Thanks guys. The man that told me this was Just a steel player in the audience of my show. Im sorry for confusing you but i didn't actually mean to rest the hand directly on the strings but rather above the strings. Resting the hand in that location. I like to pick in various locations depending where the bar is.
Thanks for the help guys.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 6:22 am
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| Jeff Metz Jr. wrote: |
| I like to pick in various locations depending where the bar is. |
That's reassuring.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 7:23 am
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One of the things I like to caution newbies about is taking advice from players who say things like "Never do that", or "Always do this". Because invariably, they come up wrong, and that's because there is no single way to properly do things. There is no rule book, no unbreakable law, and no big bible of regulations when it comes to playing this thing. I've seen lots of players rest their hand on a pickup (like Jimmy Day) and lots who play six or eight inches from the pickup (like Jeff Newman). I've seen players who play with a flat hand, and those who with a peaked hand. I've seen those who hook a finger, and those who don't. I've seen those who play with a stiff pinky, and those who play with a bent one. And on and on, ad infinitum. To put it simply and truthfully, different things work for different players, there is no right or wrong.
My advice would be - find the technique you like, and that works best for you, and then spend a few decades perfecting it. Because...that's what every other pro has done. |
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Curry Coster
From:
Glen Burnie, MD USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 7:42 am
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Jeff..
You'll never find a more opinionated group of people than steel guitarists.......just my opinion, of course.....
Curry |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 7:45 am
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There are no hard and fast rules...I find that I have to move my hand more toward the changer as I move the bar higher up in order to preserve a similar tone that I get down low...so if I'm playing on the first fret, I may be picking around the 18th fret, but if I'm playing on the 12th fret, I may move my right hand so that I'm picking around the 24th fret...it also depends on the style of music and a multitude of other factors, such as the type of attack you want to produce.
My preference on bar movement is to slide, but do some of both...it's mostly just a feel thing. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 7:50 am
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Something I'd like to add about vibrato- it isn't just one style or the other, but when you start and finish… at the beginning of the note, middle, near the end… the speed and width of the bar movement, the amount of pressure on the strings and how you vary that, whether you add just a touch, a heavy shimmy, come to a dead stop or alter the speed… etc.
I thought I had it going on with my vibrato until I first saw Buddy up close. He was using all these variations literally within a single song.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mike Wilkerson
From:
Luther Oklahoma
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 7:54 am
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Just my 2 cents Reece Anderson and Jim Lindsay both have told me right position at 23&24 feet is the sweet spot
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S12 MSA Classic Nashville 400 with fox mods amp 1 volume pedal 1 Lil Izzy and 3 cords |
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George Seymour
From:
Notown, Vermont, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 8:07 am
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Read and re-read Donny Hinson's post....
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Old Emmons D-10's & Wrap Resound 65, Standel amps!
Old Gibson Mastertones |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2016 12:50 pm
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Great stuff guys!
I Feel like I have a good handle on What I've been doing. I get good tone, and Im comfortable playing the way I do.
The only reason I brought it up is because I thought "I must have fallen into one of those bad habits that are hard to break later" that I hear about so often here on the forum. Just wanted to check with the pro's and get your opinions.
Thanks again guys.
I'll try to post a video sometime soon of my playing , that will give ya'll a better idea of what Im working with.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Tommi Toijonen
From:
Kouvola, Finland
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Posted 27 Mar 2016 1:15 am
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Just noticed in a studio situation that slide vibrato may cause some audible scratch noise.
That may sound cool with dobro, but somehow I didn't like that too much with pedal steel. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Mar 2016 7:23 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
One of the things I like to caution newbies about is taking advice from players who say things like "Never do that", or "Always do this". Because invariably, they come up wrong, and that's because there is no single way to properly do things. There is no rule book, no unbreakable law, and no big bible of regulations when it comes to playing this thing. I've seen lots of players rest their hand on a pickup (like Jimmy Day) and lots who play six or eight inches from the pickup (like Jeff Newman). I've seen players who play with a flat hand, and those who with a peaked hand. I've seen those who hook a finger, and those who don't. I've seen those who play with a stiff pinky, and those who play with a bent one. And on and on, ad infinitum. To put it simply and truthfully, different things work for different players, there is no right or wrong.
My advice would be - find the technique you like, and that works best for you, and then spend a few decades perfecting it. Because...that's what every other pro has done. |
There are exceptions and a big one would be that unless you are into an inconsistent, thin, nasal tone and intend to injure yourself do not rest the heel of your hand on the bridge and pick like a banjo player. It works for banjo because there are not so many strings. To much ground to cover with a pedalsteel.
Another one is if you intend to play in tune you cannot hold the bar using to much tension. Gripping hard messes everything up.
Oh yea and don't stick your elbos out !
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Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Mar 2016 10:28 am
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As far as vibrato goes I often suggest that students practice without any vibrato. Add it back in when the note is right and it has an intentional musical purpose. So many new players just sort of wiggle the bar all the time and it sounds pretty crappy.
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Bob |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Posted 27 Mar 2016 11:25 am
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Bob H wrote:
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do not rest the heel of your hand on the bridge and pick like a banjo player.
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Well, I pick banjo (link below) with no heel resting on said bridge, in fact, I've seen close up, Arnold, Eldridge, Emerson, Crowe, Munde, Johnson, Keith, and many others who've never rested their hand heel on the bridge.
Regarding vibrato, work with multiple rolls and then let your ear tell you what sounds best. Unless of course, your happy with the "slide" method, as you stated, just build on what you got....
https://youtu.be/PcFUQnfNy0M
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Assorted gear and a set of hands...
https://www.facebook.com/garythelee
https://www.youtube.com/user/ZumEmm |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 Mar 2016 9:20 pm
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My understanding of banjo is limited. But I do know that many steel players have issues with anchoring the heel of there hand on the bridge. It makes a thin and annoying tone.
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Bob |
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Dan Robinson
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 28 Mar 2016 7:44 am
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Seems to me that WHERE strings are picked has a dramatic effect on tone. Try picking a chord, or some combination of single strings with the bar at one position. Repeat this a few times, varying only where you strike the strings. The relative position imparts a distinct character to the sound. Something special happens at the midpoint between bar and bridge. The instantaneous overtone mix is affected by where and how we strike the string.
As Georg points out, the position he uses for Blackbird (close to the bar) is deliberate. You can pick the notes anywhere, but he found the "magic" near the bar.
Finding the sweet spot is a dimension of creativity. Great wisdom in Donny's advice to avoid absolutes (always, never...).
"My karma ran over your dogma." |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 28 Mar 2016 8:46 am
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| 'checking with the pros' on an open forum can be a dicey situation. the category of pros vs those who consider themselves pros is problematic at best. |
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