Do "Eyes" or "Ears" effect Steel Buyers????

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

I know this may be a minor issue, but in buying a Steel which is more important- The APPEARANCE or the SOUND.?? And can either issue stop a sale? Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works.

Jim Hinton · From: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

That's a question that can only be answered by "it depends" ...

As a beginner, 30 years ago, I didn't have a clue what a great sounding steel was compared to a "lesser" sounding guitar. My ear hadn't been trained yet to be able to tell the difference.

But man, did I love the "bells, whistles, and chrome. In essense, visual was more important than audio.

As an "old dude", I'd rather not have too many gadgets to confuse myself with ... just show me how to sound like Paul Franklin, or Buddy Emmons, and I'm in!!

It's like buying a car ... older guys want something that looks decent, but solid as a rock, and that won't fall apart.

Give me a great sound over looks anyday!!

Am I right?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Neither. The mechanics are what sells me. A guitar has to play well, or it's worthless. Appearance is secondary (my hacked up Sierra S-12 is as ugly as they come), and almost all pedals steels sound pretty darn good to me.

It's nice to have a real pretty, great sounding pedal steel, but what's the point if it doesn't have positive stops or if the pedals keep going out of tune. The quality of mechanical construction is the most important thing.

The guitars that sell well are beautiful, sound great, and have great mechanical design. If someone has added hardware store parts on a guitar or jury rigged something in some goofy way, I'm just not interested.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

TONE and like Bob,mechanics.Boring black works just fine with me.

Db

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~

Ron ! · Posted 21 Nov 2004 11:01 am

quote:
It's nice to have a real pretty, great sounding pedal steel, but what's the point if it doesn't have positive stops or if the pedals keep going out of tune. The quality of mechanical construction is the most important thing.

could not have said it better.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 21 November 2004 at 11:02 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

All three are important to me:
Eyes (appearance); Ears (sound/tone); and Works (mechanics)

Ears 50%
Works 30%
Eyes 20%

I will not buy a guitar with dead spots or with too harsh or muddy tone
I will not buy a guitar that does not stop positively, tune accurately, and play smoothly
I will not buy a butt ugly guitar

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

I agree with b0b that the mechanical issue is most important. The 'EYE" buyer usually is the new 'WANNABEE" player and buys a guitar that is eye appealing.TONE can be altered with amps, etc. Most customers I have that "Eye" buy usually just want to upgrade the instrument. They soon realize a 3/1 is limited and they need more Pedals, Knees etc.Regardless you need to know what a bar does,and what the pedals do. ED

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I respectfully disagree that tone can be changed in a profound and positive way by EQ or pickup choice. A guitar has an intrinsic sound. Some are mellow, others are bright, many are in between. Taking a mellow guitar and goosing the high end on your amp will not make it sound like a bright guitar.

I suspect that most players in the late 60s - early 70s would have been happy to just let Sho-Bud be essentially the only brand if you could take a mellow guitar and brighten it up with the amp. There was a reason why 'Brand X' (the Emmons push-pull) quickly captured a major segment of the market. The high mid and high frequency overtones are totally different on a bright guitar like an Emmons or a ZumSteel than they are on a Bud or an MSA from the 70's.

I know. I tried to make an MSA sound like an Emmons for several years before I wised up. (nothing negative about MSA, it just wasn't what I was looking for tone-wise) The more treble I added the more brittle it became.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

John Daugherty · From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

I go for mechanics (smooth,easy working mechanism). I am satisfied with using equipment and touch to change the tone. If the audience is pleased with my sound,I am happy. I place most of my efforts into playing for the audience rather than for my "own amazement".
Of course, if the guitar has a noticeably pleasing tone, that is another plus.....JD

Jon Jaffe · From: Austin, Texas

While the forum is one of the great places to debate sound and tone, I have yet to see any randomized controlled double blind trials of sound appreciation. I am trying to get some interest in this for the Dallas Jam. I personally agree with b0b and good engineering makes the technique easier, and thus, sound better. Opinions, on the other hand make the Forum fun. See this for a detailed forum essay:click here. To conclude with an absurd generalization; this would be a non issue if we all had a Kline.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

IMHO, this is always an intrigueing topic. My take is that every guitar has it's own inherent "sound" or, timbre. Timbre is the sound you hear comming out of the instrument without any coloration whatsoever. That's the guitar's "personality" or character. Beyond that, there are an infinite number of ways to color that basic timbre...picking technique, bar composition, stomp boxes, amps, etc.

Within each brand I've heard a certain signature timbre. I think that is what sets, for instance, an Emmons P/P apart from an MSA all pull. That signature timbre can't be changed without changing some foundational part of the guitar's construction.

I think it's wonderful that there is such a wide variety of guitars to choose from, but I believe each is tonally unique and, at best, only very similar to other guitars within that brand.

Now, beyond that, you've got the picking style, amp, etc., which is a whole other story.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Larry Bell wrote:

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

How about history and heritage? Any weight there?

SB LDG

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Mr. Naylor asserted:

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

Try this- Take a Sho-Bud and a Peavey amp ,turn the amp to"ZERO" settings and have 6 different players sit down and let's see what happens.Is there a remote possibility the way you 'Wiggle" the bar or "Stomp" the Volume pedal it could effect the sound.??? ED

Mike Mantey · From: Eastern Colorado, USA

Or, you could shop around and find a guitar that has it all: mechanics, looks, tone, dependability, etc.

Mike Mantey
Mullen Guitars

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

Many people call me and tell me they just bought a 3/1 guitar from the Pawn shop. They paid $500 and need info. I send them info but, tell them the Guitar is limited but, they can at least learn fret and chord positions, What the pedals do and how and why the Knee functions.I tell them to accept the limitations and get local players to help them get started , and plan on another Guitar in a few months. It's called"Make What You Have Work For You. " ED

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

One third of your chord positions are missing if you don't have an F lever. Nobody should start on a 3+1 guitar.

Larry, I think maybe you're reading more into Ed's statement about tone than he intended. Or maybe not.

In my mind, there's no denying that an amplifier can alter tone in "profound and positive ways". I can't make my Webb sound like my Boogie, or visa versa. They both bring out different characteristics of any instrument that's plugged into them. It's not just a matter of EQ - no amount of knob twisting will make a Webb sound like a Boogie.

We are playing electronic instruments. The amp is a part of the instrument - the part that actually outputs sound. Let's not minimize its role to that of a simple EQ device.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

"eyes" to the novice, "ears" to the seasoned, but not at the expense of each other. What are the eyes looking for? Color? Glitter? Or are they looking for strength and ruggedness?

Dat's why vee recommends zee experienced PSG enthusiast to accompany zee novice on buying expeditions. (Unless yer goin' to see Bobbe or Scotty or those of that group where your "mentor" is already there...)

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

My idea of the post was to focus on a problem relating to Steels.Unfortunately there are 1000's of 3/1 guitars still around.Prior to that we had the ELECTRAHARP, FENDER 400 and the MULTI-KORD.Many forumites started with these "Limited" guitars, and upgraded.If we convince the "Newbee" of the limits and support them and help them upgrade we will gain in the long run.Maybe we should have a "RECALL" like they do on drugs.Ed

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I've heard that they burn pretty well if you douse them with gasoline first.

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Both. That's why my main guitar is an Emmons D10 p/p with a blond lacquer body.

My first guitar was a Gibson "Elektraharp". It showed up in a want-ad only a few days after I was bitten hard by the PSG "bug".

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

giving this lots of thought.i do like a pretty guitar,and birdseye always steals my heart.i've got 2 sho-buds right now,trying to decide which one i like the most!have a old professional,and a pro 3 alum.necks.using the same up,i take the Hilton pedal,unplug from one steel,and go to other.it's hard to say,2 complete different sounds,same amps.setting ect.guess i go by the feel.some steels you set behind,just feel at home,others just don't got that feel.guess,i'd say feel over looks. farris

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

It's hard to get pretty music out of an UGLY guitar!

Erv

Farris Currie · From: Ona, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Come on ERV,ugly women are good lovers tooooo, in the dark!!!!!!!!ha ha farris

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