Isn't E13 the same as C6 - just transposed?

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

I play in primarily what I call C6 this tuning is CEGACE lo to hi. When most people speak of E13 is it the same as my tuning but transposed up to E (open strum yields an E chord variation)?

Thanks,

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Gerald Ross
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website

Bill Leff · From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

I think of E13 as a transposed C6 but with the addition of a dominant 7th note. I think it's usually found on a 7 or 8 string guitar (instead of a 6th) as a result.

John Kavanagh · From: Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.

Strictly speaking, a 13th chord is a triad plus 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13 (which is the 6th up an octave). A full E13 chord would be e g# b d f# a c#, but it will still sound like a 13th chord without the b or the a. The E13 I use is Bdef#g#bc#'e', which is pretty common. A friend of mine used EG#Bdeg#c#e, and called that E13 because it had both a 6th and a 7th in it. You might try the top 6 notes of his tuning, or the top 5 plus a high g#. I missed the b string when I tried it.

Junior Brown uses a C13 with a high g: Bb c e g a c' e' g'.

nick allen · From: France

Since you're talking 6 strings, the "E13" used by Don Helms with Hank Williams, for example, (and also I believe by Little Roy Wiggins) is indeed the C6 four semi-tones higher. (and as others have pointed out, without the b7th it is in fact an E6).
Nick

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

On Friday, July the 13th, I was going to open a topic on 13th chords. I thought that would be

. Looks like you boys beat me to it. The discussion was going to be around a statement I read once that a 13th chord had 6th and a 7th in it. That made 13.

My SMR (smart a$$ reply.) was, yeah but so does a 5th and an 8th and they don't sound like a 13th chord !!

Then I got older and things became less hectic. I thought it would make for some interesting discussion and I think from the looks of this, I was right. Now if we could get Chas Smith and John Paul Jones in here it would really get interesting.

One could ask the question: Why is there no chord named above 13 ? Or what happens to
12 and 14 if they are altered steps ?

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 24 June 2001 at 01:34 PM.]

Bill Leff · From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Wanted to make a comment about John's "strictly speaking what a 13th chord is" statement. I agree if you build a chord by thirds, the 13th chord would have 1,3,5,7,9,11 and 13 notes, but that chord would not be "good sounding" to most of us, because of the 11th (aka fourth). At least that's my thinking without having an instrument in front of me to actually try it.

My experience has been that 13th chords are commonly composed of a 1, 3, 5, 6, and b7. I think I've seen the addition of the 9th written as a "13add9" chord. I can't recall seeing a "13add9sus4" chord but somebody probably uses it in jazz somewhere!

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

A jazz player would use the 9th and 11th notes as part of the improvisational scale that goes with a 13th chord. When you play the 11th as part of the chord, it tends to change the basic tonality quite a bit.

The most common 13th inversion that I use is the triad b7, 3, 6. The essense of the E13th tuning is having D in the low octave and C# in the high octave. B D E G# B C# E G#

Maybe it's "wrong" to call it a 13th tuning, but we all understand each other. Most pedal steel players play C6th with an F in the low register. Technically it's not a C6th, but we all know what we're talking about. Ditto with E9th, which has a high D#.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

The way I understand it to be is, E13 implies that there is a 7th, and usually a dom 7th in the chord whereas a 6th chord does not have a 7th. Where this comes from is from expanding a diatonic scale from single notes to triads to 7th chords. So in the key of C, the single note scale is: C D E F G A B C, (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Cool

. The triads then are: C D- E- F G A- B-b5 C.
And the 7th chords are: Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, Gdom7, A-7, B-7b5, (I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII). These are the chords of the C scale and they are all related because they are made from the notes of the C scale. This is where the numbers come from, chords built on scale numbers.
Some of these chords are in other scales and that's another topic.

This can get complicated so in trying to keep it simple, if you think of the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths, which are the scale notes if you continue the scale: C D E F G A B (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14) as the notes that are happening 'above' the chord scale area, 'upper structures' then it's easier to understand. You could also think of it as a C6 hasn't gotten to the 7th yet.

As an aside, the E9 chromatic tuning is not chromatic, it's diatonic until you push the pedals. With that same reasoning, the C6 is also chromatic when you push the pedals.

Excuse me, I forgot where I was, you won't be pushing the pedals, please accept my sincere apology for this gaff.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 22 June 2001 at 12:13 PM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

b0b has it right, the C6 with the F in the low register is really a Fmaj7,9

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

True a C6 and E13th are similar in content but miles apart in perceived sound. There is one major reason for this.

Any time you have a high major third as your top two strings it makes a whale of difference in what we hear. True you could put your bar (C6th tuning) on the 4th fret and have the exact same notes. But it will STILL sound differently.

The same arguement can be put forth between C6th and A6th, yet they sound very different.

The thing that is missing over and above all that has been said, is the "timber" of chords even the same exact notes when played on different tunings.

This phenomenon in music is not unknown in other musical genre. That is why volumes have been written about classical compositions, ie, pieces written in one key when played in an adjacent key sound completely different!!

Connoisseurs of classical music will often talk about the "feeling" as perceived when a piece is played say in Db Major. versus one played in E major. Even though the notes are indentical relatively speaking.

Such I believe is the case between C6th, E13th, or A6th. Our top neck on E9th is similar to the old Don Helms tuning (E13th). It is missing a very important link however. That having the E, C# AND B notes in a cluster. and Even though you can lower the 2nd string to a C# and emulate it, it STILL sounds different from what is so recognizable like Don played.

On the other hand listen to most everyone play C6th and even though player's styles are different, most anyone can tell the difference between the C6th tuning and a person playing A6th. EVEN though they could be hitting the exact same notes!! A6th has often been referred to as the "bassy" 6th tuning, and E13th has been referred to as the "brassy" or "brite" 6th tuning. C6th of course falls somewhere in the middle.

Here is another observation. Once JB invented C6th, it changed laptops forever. While many play all kinds of variations and other tunings such as A6th, E7th, C# minor, E13th, C9th and B11th, MOST everyone has one of dem necks tuned to C6!

Why?

carl

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Chas: I knew it ! It's already getting interesting. If you get around to "that other topic", I want to be there. You've already mentioned related, could you digress
a bit on the related minor scale ? It falls right into this 13th poporri and I'd like to read your view of it. Is it another scale or just an extention of it's relative major ? In this discussion it seems to be interwoven with the major at least out to the 13th. Accident, coincidence or reality ?

Best Regards, Paul

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I tune my Sierra Laptop to D13 so that I can approximate Jerry Byrd's C6th and Don Helms E13th in a single tuning. The timbre isn't exactly right for either, but it's close enough that only steel players notice the difference. I play Helms' parts two frets higher and JB's parts two frets lower. Here's the tuning, and how it relates to E13 and C6th:



note   number   E13    C6


  E      9


  F#     3      G#     E


  D      1      E      C


  B      6      C#     A


  A      5      B      G 


  F#     3      G#     E


  D      1      E      C


  C     b7      D

The first string is tuned between the second and third. I use it mostly as a convenience for fast melody work (not in Hank tunes!).
------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 22 June 2001 at 08:59 PM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Chas smith wrote

quote:
So in the key of C, the single note scale is: C D E F G A B C, (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . The triads then are: C D- E- F G A- B-b5 C.
And the 7th chords are: Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, Gdom7, A-7, B-7b5, (I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII).

CLICK! I never understood until just now how the m7b5 chord fits in. That's because I always thought that the VII chord was a diminished. Bdim7 would take you out of the scale - it has an Ab in it.

Thank you, Chas. You just closed the loop for me. Now things are starting to make sense!

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Gerald- You are basically right. The 13th note is actually an inverted 6th note. I played one of these type tunings on my D8.

(E)-G#-B-D-F#-G#-B-C#-E (low to high) For 8 strings I had to leave off the low E. The top 4 strings are E6, so, your statement is in the ball park.

This was a very versatile tuning , also called C#min7 and there is also a Bminor6th on the bottom four strings and a E9 on the bottom 5 strings with the low E.
Players like Speedy West used to use a tuning like this, also Alvino Rey on his D9 double neck.
This was before pedals. During a job, I used to tune that 2nd string C# up to a D, and opened up a lot of possibilities. Got a nice 3 note diminished with that and good straignt 7th up there. Bminor 6 higher up.

We make those changes and do that now with pedals. But a lot of good music can be played with a non pedal guitar.

On my pedal guitar, I have it tuned to E6th and can play most of the old tunes, without using pedals.
But for me now at this point in time, I am glad pedals got invented.....al

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

bOb; I read your "CLICK" at 2:30AM and I thought; Huh ? But just before I fell asleep, it hit me. I remember Arnie Berle using the mb5 but what Clicked for you just did for me as well. When I began these thinking games years ago, I was intrigued by how an Augmented triad repeats itself as an inversion every four fretts, four times to the octave completion. When I got to dim7ths, I found the same process in place except every three fretts. But it had little practical application whereas what Arnie Berle and Chas are showing us has many applications.

Nice CLICK ! Regards, Paul

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

b0b, you're welcome, it's gratifying for me to be able to pass it around.
While we're on the B-7b5 topic, if you look at it, it really is a G7,9 chord. Everytime I see a -7b5 chord, there's a moment of indecision, if I see a dom9 chord there isn't. There seems to be a lot of A-7b5 chords out there and really they're just F7,9 chords.
Back to the B-7b5 and G7,9 and the rest of the chords from the C scale. First, my disclaimer, I'm not a great soloist, and I've proven it on a number of occasions. If you look at all those chords, Cmaj7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj7, G7, A-7, B-7b5, they are all made from the notes of the C scale so it stands to reason that soloing on the C scale over them, will work.

quote:
When I got to
dim7ths, I found the same process in place except every three fretts

They repeat every 3 frets, in part, because there are only 3 diminished chords, Cdim7, C#dim7 and Ddim7 and their inversions. Cdim7, Ebdim7, F#dim7 and Adim7 all have the same notes in them, so they are essentially the same chord.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
If you get around to "that other topic", I want to be there. You've
already mentioned related, could you digress
a bit on the related minor scale

Paul, I'm not sure I understand the question. There's one major scale, there's lots of minor scales and what they have in common are flatted 3rds. C6 and A-7 chords are related in that they have the same notes in them and really the only way you can tell them apart is by what note did the bass player play, by the same token, if the bass note is B and you played a G7,9, it's a B-7b5.

Another topic could be, how do you know what key it's in by looking at the chords? There is a Cmaj7 in the key of G, there's an A-7 in the keys of C, F, and G, if you are working with triads, there's a C and a D in G and not all songs begin and end on the tonic. So let's forget about the VII chord for now, each key has 2 major 7ths and 3 minor 7ths, but only one dominant, and that's how you know where you are. If you see a G7, you're in the key of C, a C7 means you are in F, an F7 means Bb. This is how cycle 5 gets you from here to there smoothly.

For blues chords and scales, all rules and bets are off.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 23 June 2001 at 06:14 PM.]

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Chas: It was a long night last night so I didn't want to write this being so tired. It's morning now and I want to keep this essentially brief. I'm currently in a discussion with Ed Packard on this and Mike Ihde and friends are going over some of it as well. Bear in mind I have had no formal musical education but can certainly recognize it in others and I value your expertise. Your contribution to the Modal discussions awhile back added much to my knowledge and understanding.

I view the Major scale(s) as the only basic and fundamentally sound structure. All others either being related or derived there
from. The major scale is based on the harmonic content of the Tonic tone. From it, the Dominant and Sub-dominant tones follow the logic of the fraction 1/3 and establish the circle of 5ths. The fraction
1/5 establishes the third tones and when placed in a sequential order, the Major scale
is formed.

I readily grant that the values for each step may be adjusted for temperament and basic pitch but the shape of the Major scale and the fundamental rates are determined by the harmonic series. No other scale or mode
is so established.

In looking for the Big Bang of musical theory, I found first the basis for the Major Triad and then applied the same process to the just found 5th tone and then to the 5th below the tonic. This gave me all the rate values for the sequence. Placed in numerical order, I found the Whole, Whole Half,Whole Whole Whole, Half shape.

In extending the sequence higher as you do to find 7th chords, I found that there were none named above the 13th and hence the subject of this thread. That encloses the basic Major scale and it's related minor scale. All the intervals in both as established before, still remain in place.
And as bOb and I just learned, the flatted A in a dim-7th chord is out of place; doesn't fit the order.

Other changes for harmony or musical taste or instrumentation necessity may now occur because of the foundation established so far.
I reject the notion that one can simply reach out and grab any 8 notes and form a scale while dening the logic of what I have just described. They do it but without any substantiation.

I wrote this originally in the 60s for Fender/Fretts and more recently for another publication which shall remain unnamed since it was soundly trashed by them and some who are also on this Forum. It was supposed to show where the scales and circle of 5ths came from and the logic behind asscending sharp scales and descending flat scales. The order of increasing sharp and flat notes in the key signatures was also explained.

But is was deemed as of no musical value and even if I knew what I was talking about, it would be of no value to STEEL GUITAR. I think you can see that I disagree with their
conclusions but remain open to any others that would explain errors in my thinking or redefine it in a logical, polite manner. This is too long...

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 24 June 2001 at 07:01 AM.]

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 24 June 2001 at 07:17 AM.]

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 24 June 2001 at 01:43 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

What do you call 3 notes played simultaneously? If one were to become real liberal, they COULD be called by an almost infinite number of names.

Here are just two examples:

(E9th neck)

A and B engaged strings 4, 5 and 6 and lower the E's. What is that chord? A person trying to dazzle ya with his psuedo musical knowledge would call it A flatted 5th.

(C6th neck)

Is it C6 OR is it A minor 7th?

Most music theorists will tell you there is really NO such thing as a "flatted 5th"! They would call that "A flatted 5th", a B9th chord!!

In the second example, many of these same music theorists will tell you, "there is NO such thing as a 6th chord!

Let me tell you a true life story about the latter.

I studied steel guitar under a teacher who was a juliard graduate. She had played steel guitar for the infamous Paul Whiteman Orchestra in the "heyday" of the big band era. They often had "Hawaiian" guitars back in the 20's, 30's and 40's.

One time, during a lesson, I happened to tell her about Jerry Byrd and his tuning called C6th and spelled the string notes as on a 6 string guitar.

BOY, did she EVER unload on me. That entire lesson was about the spelling of chords and she finally said these words which were indelibly imprinted in my brain,

"There is NO such thing as a 6th chord in music. AND there NEVER will be!! That "hillbilly" tuning you are referring to is NOT C6th! It is A minor 7th. And DON'T you ever forget it".

Well it is now almost 60 years since that incident. And while I have NEVER forgotten it (she scared the livin daylights out of me

), I still call it C6. The reason; ain't NObody out there jest bout gonna kno whut in tarnation an A miner 7th be!!

I can just here it now! "I have a D-10 with the top neck tuned to B minor flat 7th and the bottom neck tuned to A minor 7th suspended 11th."

Now wouldn't that get me a free membership in the Nashville players union for life?

God bless you all,

carl

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Hey Carl, let's not forget that this is the "No Peddlers" section.

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

Chas: I cannot say in adequate words how much your reply means to me ! For forty years I have been unraveling this on my own and to hear you say that I am at least on the right path is especially gratifying ! Not that I would have changed courses had you said otherwise for I see it is as a lifelong journey for me and no end in sight. There will always be another Topic.
Now I need to reread your comments again to get the right interpetation before I say more than just Many Many Thanks !!

Carl; This makes the third time this week I've read about abusive teachers. One of the others was one by BE. A sad commentary indeed for people who are in one of the gentler professions.

bOb; I think Carl was using a best description of a flatted 5th more then pedal technique to go with his 6th/m7th statement.
If I read the Forum correctly, most of us older pedal guys began on lap steel and no pedals and wouldn't miss a single thing in the No Peddlers section. I myself go there first of all the topics. Don't know why, I just do. None would want to say or post anything there that would offend or be objectionalble to No Peddlers. I feel a strong kinship to them but sometimes wonder if that is a two way street....

Regards, Paul

John Kavanagh · From: Kentville, Nova Scotia, Canada * R.I.P.

Maybe this belongs in a new topic in the "Music" section.

What you call a chord is as much a matter of its context as what pitches are heard. I agree that a lot of times I'd rather see E9/G# than G#m7b5 [or G#ø7]. The only difference is that the G#ø7 doesn't have an e in it, and in some contexts, like if it acts as a subdominant to D#, it might sound better without one. But it's usually a quibble.
Who needs unnecessary algebra?

And regarding that Am7 / C6 debate, that 'un goes way back. In the 17th century, chords were usually named from the bass note, so even a C major triad with the third in the bass was considered a 6-3 chord on E. (E with a sixth and a third over it).

In Rameau's book about harmony, published in the first half of the 18th century, he basically argued for the modern conception of there being a "root" note which may or may not be the bass note. So, for instance, he says that what we might call a C6, and that at that time most musicians would have called a C 6-5-3 chord on C, should be considered an inversion of an Am7 chord with the third (c) in the bass. (I heard someplace, and wish I could verify it, that Rameau's somewhat more conservative contemporary J.S. Bach disagreed with him on this, and argued for the older more practical notion of reckoning chords from the bass, and they exchanged letters on the subject.)

Later writers on harmony went with the Rameau's concept of chord roots with inversions, but some of them allowed for the "chord of the added sixth" as an exception to the rule of always assuming chords were built from a root by thirds. Meanwhile players and composers kept using the ii7 with the third in the bass as a subdominant, or the IV6 chord, because they liked the way it sounded whatever it was called.

(Like most people, I call it a C6 when there's a C in the bass, and an Am7 when there's an A. I like to think I'm in good company with J.S. Bach on my side.)

I think the switch in describing chords in general was the result of people starting to want to hear music as melody + chords, whereas earlier musicians tended to hear music as harmonising parts, or as bass + melody with filler in the middle. It's a question of emphasis - it's as broad as it is long. But Carl Dixon could have had the satisfaction of telling his arrogant teacher that she had been led astray by some newfangled harmony talk, and what was good enough for Mr. Bach was good enough for him, thank you very much and so there.

[This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 04 July 2001 at 12:56 PM.]

Paul Graupp · From: Macon Ga USA

John: No one needs the understanding of chords and relationships more than No Peddlers. It's their Bread and Butter !!

Looks like this discussion has been going on for hundreds of years so a few more wouldn't hurt anyone. There is always someone who is either just beginning or comes across a point he hasn't seen before and they each deserve a proper answer. At least to the best of our abilities. There are those who consider some of us musical illiterates or as they used to call us; Hillbillies. They usually don't get into these Topics for ego reasons as they wouldn't want us to learn any of their hard earned lessons. So we do the best we can for each other.

In the middle of this thread, Chas and I were talking about Major scales and modes.
Basically if a song is in a major key, the chord would be a X6th. If it were in a minor key, then it would be Xm7th. There is always the point that a Major scale has precedence because of it's foundation, the harmonic series. Minors are related to a Major or considered as a mode of the major scale. I suppose since there are usually 8 members of a minor or mode, some would call them scales but I'm beginning to get wary of what I'd call a scale. Key; Mode: Scale ??

I don't think Mother Nature threw out a bunch of notes for us to figure out. There is a basic logic to all of this and it must be learned. I for one don't think mankind invented the harmonic series any more than he invented the Atomic Tables. But we use both as best we may. We make new materials of matter from the Tables and new chords and music from the intervals. And we make suitable adjustments to either in our effort to find the best of each.

Discussions like this are like two old guys fishing on a stream bank. They talk about what interests them; the weather, the water; the fish. Just as we do. But if there is a grandson there with one of them, he doesn't know the language or the fish but they will teach him what he needs to know.

Regards, Paul

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
There
is always the point that a Major scale has precedence because of it's foundation, the harmonic series

Here's one to ponder, The sub-harmonic series is a 'minor' series.

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