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Topic: Buffers,true bypass,tone suck ?uestions |
Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 1:35 am |
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I'm really not trying to be a smart alec,but I guess I was wondering how all of this comes together. As guitarists we are told we mustn't use Boss type pedals because they are buffered and not true bypass,therefore causing "tone suck" . By way of comparison, I've seen nothing but praise for the 'lil izzy buffer. I believe it has been advocated to use multiple buffers in your signal chain in certain instances. I'm not knocking a product that I haven't tried....I'm just a little confused. In full disclosure,my current signal chain is guitar-Goodrich 120-digitech rp150-Musicman 65 non-reverb..
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D.S. Rigsby |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 2:08 am
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Basically: it depends on what the buffer is built for ... low, medium or high impedance PUs. PSGs have pretty high impedance PUs, and buffers built for 6 string guitars are meant for medium to low impedance PUs, thus they may "suck" tone when used on PSGs.
Buffers made for PSGs are, or should be, tailored for high impedance PUs, and load the PSG PUs lightly and linearly.
Most, but not all, Boss units with buffered bypass are tailored for 6 strings PUs, synts, etc., and should never come first after high impedance steel PUs, and ideally not first after passive VPs either, because they load high impedance PUs and VPs "too hard". Besides, not all buffered bypass - be it in Boss units or in other effect units - are linear, so in addition to "wrong load" they may color the tone in bypass mode no matter where they are inserted in the sound-chain.
The Boss LMB-3 that I use, is high impedance tailored and pretty linear in buffered bypass mode, so I use it as permanent buffer on my PSGs - no other buffers needed.
I wouldn't trust many other effect units with buffered bypass to act as buffers on PSG, but it is worth testing units with interesting effects before writing off any and all effect units just because they have buffered bypass. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 4:18 am
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Hi Dustin and Georg,
Well I learn something every day. Since I don't play six string guitar I've never used any of the zillion pedals out there. That being said, can't imagine why anyone would design a buffer with anything less than a very high input impedance and a very low output impedance. Linearity is a given, or it wouldn't be a pure buffer.
Dustin, one analogy I've seen to help explain impedance is to picture water flowing through a pipe. You can always go from a 2 inch pipe into a 6 inch pipe or 12 inch, etc. If you attempt to pass water from a 6 inch pipe into a 2 inch pipe, the flow becomes restricted. You're always safe to send a signal from a low impedance source to a high impedance load. A well-designed buffer will allow you to hear all of your guitar's overtones and full range.
You might be amazed at how much more tone your guitar has to offer when properly buffered. Otherwise, you're not hearing all the beautiful tone you've paid for. Professional recording studios wouldn't think of using a high impedance microphone, why put up with a high impedance guitar?
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 8:48 am Dustin
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Dustin, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here. I've played guitar for a long time , longer than I've played steel . The True Bypass came to be in my opinion because back in the day there were pedals that would change you tone for one reason or another. Some actually because they had a buffer of some sort in them. So pedal companies jumped on the bandwagon of saying that TRUE BYPASS doesn't change your tone . Well if you string enough of these TRUE BYPASS pedals together on a pedal board you've created a very long cable. Some guitar players love the lack of sparkle and high end that is a result of this . Steel players seem to be more concerned with tone than any other group I've come in contact with . I noticed a dramatic change in the sound of my steel using a buffer "Lil IZZY" the first time . I eventually figured out ways to use buffers properly in other situations to help preserve what was coming out of the instrument. Most of the BIG BOY guitarist that I have met have a buffer or 2 in the signal chain not only for impedance but for unity gain recovery . Most people don't like a buffer right before a distortion or overdrive so there are places and situations where a buffer is not welcome so to speak. There are several products under different names that are buffers now days some made for steel players some made for guitar players, the bottom line I guess is what do want to hear?
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A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 11:09 am
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
... Professional recording studios wouldn't think of using a high impedance microphone, why put up with a high impedance guitar?
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Best regards,
Craig Baker |
The mic interface was classically a 600 ohm, transformer coupled, balanced interface. Most modern mics deviate from that wildly and transformer interfaces are dealer's choice ( good transformers are no longer common and transformerless designs are very good ).
the 600 ohm standard was hoisted from telephony. Most stuff today is in fact voltage coupled, not impedance coupled. The standard 4-opamp input in use mainly these days is pretty flexible, if a bit plain sounding.
Les Paul designed the "Les Paul Recording" which has lo-Z on an XLR. It also may have had a 1/4" hi-Z output. You can do the same with a DI box. The Recording had a transformer inside and nonstandard pickups. I forget if the transformer stepped the Z up for the 1/4" or down for the XLR.
If there was a standard for guitar, it came from the Fender designs which used a 1Mohm resistor in shunt across the input. Pedal designers seem to have not been all that that concerned with this until quite recently. "True bypass" seems to have mainly emerged in the 1990s.
I have a DOD-FX80B, which has an input Z of 500Kohms and an output Z of 1kohms. That's going to get you in the ballpark of compensating for the high frequency loss across a passive VP. |
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John Gould
From:
Houston, TX Now in Cleveland TX
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 5:48 pm Buffered and not Buffered
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https://youtu.be/yK5Ei1ANF0o
Here's a link to a video I did showing the difference in sound from guitar straight in a amp verses a non buffered pedal verses a buffered pedal .
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A couple of guitars
Fender GTX 100 Fender Mustang III Fender Blues Jr. Boss Katana MKII 50
Justice Pro Lite and Sho Bud Pro II |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2016 9:24 pm
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The Dr. Z Surgical Steel now has a tube buffered loop. Sounds great!
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Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2016 5:09 am
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I'm using an old boss se70. It has an input gain. This is plugged in directly to the guitar, the passive volume pedal comes afterword & goes to the amp.
Is this pretty much the same as using a buffer?
Yes, there is a good cable between the steel & the se70.
I like to use alot of the wacky effects on the se70.
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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 7 Mar 2016 5:33 am
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| Bud Angelotti wrote: |
I'm using an old boss se70. It has an input gain. This is plugged in directly to the guitar, the passive volume pedal comes afterword & goes to the amp.
Is this pretty much the same as using a buffer?
Yes, there is a good cable between the steel & the se70.
I like to use alot of the wacky effects on the se70. |
Yes, that is how a buffer is used.
I doubt if your Boss is as "transparent sounding" as a dedicated steel buffer, but if you like the resulting sound then what you have is as good as anything. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2016 5:49 am
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Thanks Georg!
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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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