Overtuning on Sho-Bud rack-and-barrel...and a sticky rack

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

I've been playing a few years, but still am in the dark about how to fix overtuning on my Sho-Bud. Right now, it's the A pedal on string 5 that I'm trying to understand.

* I can tune the A pedal to raise string 5 to C#. But when I release the pedal, string 5 is sharp. I've tried moving the barrel back a little, but the same thing still happens.

* With both barrels loose on the A pedal, the rack does not move back into position when I release the pedal.

* I can make the rack pivot with my finger, but it is sticky and does not move freely. I guess I should take it off, clean with naptha and relube, but this is way beyond anything I've done before.

Help!

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

A while back I had an Emmons with a sticky changer. I bought a product that came recommended to me and it took care of the problem. I just applied a little bit between the fingers. It is available in sporting good stores and is marketed for cleaning shotguns. It is called "Break Free".

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

It's not clear in your description, but does the pedal have enough travel to cover the pitch change from B to C#? Try backing off the pedal stop (the screw in the little "L" bracket above the point where the pedal rods attach) and backing off the allen screw on the pull rod at the end plate to make sure the pull rod is not engaging the finger at all and has just a little slack between the barrel and the rack. Tune the open string to B, your pedal should now go past C#. Adjust the pedal stop to tune it to C#. If this doesn't do it, then refer back to Erv's or your own suggestion, something is probably just gummed up.

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

If the rack is hanging up, it probably needs some side to side end play. The holes in the bearing brackets are bigger than the wood screws that go through it. Loosen the screw just a tad and with the screw driver, push the bracket in towards the center, moving that bracket a little toward the one on the other end of the cross shaft. Retighten. You want a little clickity click, side to side slop in there. The rack should rotate without any resistance, taking the return spring into consideration of coarse. RP
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

Also make sure that the adjuster barrel isn't locked (threaded all the way in until the spring is totally compressed) and that is has some adjustment travel. It's also critical that the spring tit protrudes enough to engage the face of the rack. BTW, the open side of the rack should be in contact with the barrel. Pull the rod and flip the rack over if it's not. This provides the best method of engaging the spring tit for adjustment.

Michael
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

Thanks, Erv, Ian, Rob & Michael...I'm looking forward to coming back to this challenge armed with your advice. That will be after Jan. 3, when the holidays are over.
Thanks again.

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

Ron: Check! Moving the bracket a bit per your advice allowed the rack to rotate freely.

Ian: Check! Backing off the pedal stop was what was needed to let the B pull up to C#.

Erv: Check! Got me a can of a similar degreasing product in case I need it in the future.

Michael: Check! The adjuster barrel isn't locked and has room to travel. The spring tit engages the face of the rack. The closed side of the racks on this steel are in contact with the barrel.

Michael, does your Sho-Bud half-stop kit work with rack-and-barrel and two-hole puller Buds? I'm interested in adding a half-stop to string 1, F#, to stop it at G.

Thanks for your help, guys. I understand my Bud better now.

Happy New Year!

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

It will for 2 hole pulls and later but I really don't know about the R&B's. I suppose it could if placed it the correct orientation. Perhaps Ron has done this already and will chime in.
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Jack Hargraves · From: Missouri, USA

I'm a steel player, also a gunsmith. I've used Break Free for years on guns and my GFI. It works well on both.
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GFI Expo SD10, Nashville 112, Steelers choice Pak-a- seat, Carter vol. pedal, Stage one vol. pedal, Peavey Deltafex. Goodrich volume pedal.

Carl Mesrobian · From: Salem, Massachusetts, USA

Here's how I go about it - YMMV

Rest the guitar upside down and blocked up on the ends to avoid damage to tuners or changer fingers.

Work each pedal and knee , making sure the changer finger returns all the way back to where it was. If not, then

Changer and Racks

Check that everything is clean in the changer. If the changer returns sluggish, then it's sometimes best to remove the changer and fingers and clean the whole changer. A big job but will make a ton of difference in the way the guitar works. You'll be amazed what ends up in there - balls of dust, broken string ends, cheerios, small dogs, etc.,etc. Once the changer is working nicely, and all fingers return nicely. You might have to adjust a return spring (see 3). Then go on and check that the racks all return nicely. Check that the spring on the rack is returning the rack all the way. It's usually fine. See 1 in picture

At this point you know the fingers and racks are working fine. The racks might still be misaligned at this point, though.

Rods and Barrels

Then re rod one rod the guitar. Sight from one end of the guitar and see if the rod is straight - it should be! Make sure the rod is not binding up in the hole in one of the racks it passes through.[EDIT] For best results, it should spin freely. If not, then one or both of the brackets has to be moved. Before putting a barrel on the rod, check that the barrel is clean and the spring on the barrel has the tiny pin end poking out the hole in the barrel. If the tiny end of the barrel spring is sticky or not able to catch on the rack, you'll pretty much never be able to tune from the changer end, unless you reach under the guitar and adjust the barrel yourself. these small spring ends are notorious for getting stuck. Also as Michael said, make sure there's adjustment room in the barrel spring. The barrel springs have to be under tension in order to keep the barrel from screwing or unscrewing. And similar to what Ian said, there has to be, at the least, the smallest amount of play, between the barrel and rack. The barrel should not be putting pressure on the rack until the knee or pedal for that change is engaged. Check by grabbing the rod and checking for at least a tiny amount of play. If there's no movement, set the barrel back a hair just as a starting point. see 2 in picture. I found that checking the rod this way also allows me to feel if the rod is likely to bind on a rack or not.

Once you have the above steps done, open tune the string, and then with the pedal or knee pressed, tune the changer end .

From what you said it sounds like the return spring for a rack or changer finger isn't pulling things back where they should end up. Either due to gummed up parts, or weak springs, or the racks not having enough side to side play as Ron mentioned.

Hope some of this helps - I don't feel that I've given out any secrets, other than the secret is to be thorough. I'm no expert, but this is how I work on rack and barrel 'Buds Very Happy

_________________
--carl

"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Carl said:

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

What a great tutorial, Carl. Thanks for your help.

Carl Mesrobian · From: Salem, Massachusetts, USA

Don't thank me - thank James Morehead and Ricky Davis!
_________________
--carl

"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

That's the truth, Carl...Thanks for reminding me.

I give thanks for Ricky and James, too. A lot of beautiful Sho-Buds would be out of action without Ricky-Jay.

Very Happy

Ron Pruter · From: Arizona, USA

Andrew,
Yes you can use Michael's 1/2 step unit on rack and barrels. I recommend adding another pull rod and pull the 7th string a half and whole also. You can even time the two pulls perfectly, if needed, by putting a lowering pull rod on the string that gets to pitch ahead of the other. PM me if you need clarification. RP
_________________
Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112.

Andrew Roblin · From: Various places

I want to say a big "thank you" to Ron, Carl, Richard, Jack, Michael, Ian and Erv. And Ricky and James.

Thanks, guys.

With your help, I now know how to do basic adjustments on my beautiful Sho-Bud rack-and-barrel. I've even learned how to set up the half-stop on the 2nd string and the feel-stop on the first.

It feels so good to be able to do this stuff.

Thanks again for helping me.

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Carl Mesrobian · From: Salem, Massachusetts, USA

My bad, I've always done them with closed side toward barrel Embarassed

EDIT - I'll have to think about how I've done them - maybe some one way, some the other!
_________________
--carl

"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown

Dan Robinson · From: Colorado, USA

Carl, I hope you don't worry too much about that. Opinions on this really do vary. I discussed this at some length with James Morehead, and he said that both ways work. Shot Jackson knew what he was doing.

As you will discover, the face off on opposite opinions is in good health here on the steel guitar forum. I played my S10 at hundreds of gigs, with the racks pointed same way as they are on your guitar. Never got fired because my steel was set up wrong.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I've never seen a factory Shobud with the open side towards the barrels. It may work better, I don't know. I did have a '67 that was set up that way, but it had been modded a lot before I got it.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

From an engineering standpoint, having the open side to the barrel is a no brainer. It's makes no sense to have the closed side to the barrel as there is a rounded edge, on both sides from bending the basket to shape, which is an inferior surface to effect the anti-rotation for which that spring tit was designed for.

Having the open side to the barrel provides a definate surface to engage the spring tit and aid in the tuning of the barrel. David designed it that way and at some point during the years, someone in advertently installed them the opposite direction and then assemblers after that continued on doing that.

Having the closed side of the basket presented to the barrel is the primary cause of the rack and barrel system being cussed over the years as being a pain in the a.. to tune. If the barrel is tight or sticking, when the tuning rod is rotated and the barrel face is against the closed side,the spring tit will have a tendency to simply ride over the basket radius and fail to stop the front portion of the barrel from rotating thereby negating any attempt at lengthening or shortening the length of the barrel. This results in a "No Effect" in trying to tune that string. And the cussing begins.....

Whether or not it arrived from the factory with the closed side to the barrel is irrelevant. It's just not sound engineering practice to have it that way.

Function wins out over form every time.

Just sayin'...
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Carl Mesrobian · From: Salem, Massachusetts, USA

I always felt that the closed side of the rack toward the barrel would allow more leeway and less chance of snagging the spring nub when at rest, due to the rounded corners on the closed side of the rack.

OTOH it might make tuning the rod more frustrating Smile

EDIT - to each his own - for some the glass is half full, others half empty.. If the guitar were stable enough , one should spend more time playing and less tuning the barrels!!
_________________
--carl

"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Anybody seen the patent application drawings?
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps

Carl Mesrobian · From: Salem, Massachusetts, USA

Michael, do your comments apply to the functionality of the Pro II design of bellcrank, swivel, and barrel? Was there a change of heart when the Pro II came out, as in "Glad we redesigned and eliminated racks, but it's okay now for a barrel to stop against a rounded surface that isn't the edge of a rack"? Or are these as problematic, or pain in the *** ?

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=291189&highlight=sho+bud
_________________
--carl

"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i played a r and b professional everyday for 10 years professionally through the seventies. closed side of the rack to the barrel. never saw it any other way. never had a problem.

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