Copedent Help

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

Note

String

LKL

LKV

LKR

P0

A

B

C

P5

RKL

RKR

F#

1

D#

2

-D

G#

3

-G

+A

E

4

+F

-Eb

++F#

B

5

+C

++C#

--A

-Bb

G#

6

-G

+A

--F#

F#

7

E

8

+F

-Eb

++F#

D

9

-C#

B

10

+C

++C#

-Bb

[This message was edited by Gary Shepherd on 21 October 2004 at 10:26 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I think that the high F# to G is more useful than the B to Bb. That's the only difference I'd recommend.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Try putting the B to Bb on a left vertical, and then put the high F# to G# and 2nd string Eb to E raise on the RKL Carters S10 guitars come with 5 knees anyway !! And if you want the Paul Franklin pedal, put that on a fourth pedal !

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

The B-Bb works great in the RKL position where it can be used together w LKR & (split)A+B for a diminished voicing.

Adding the G# to G I have shown 2 places.
Either one location has its own advantages when combining from one position to another.

A vertical lever can be very useful if adjusted correctly. But 4 knee-lever might be more than enough to be happy with.

I have not included the lowering of string 6 & 5 since it might mess with the split (Apedal & B-Bb lever) but if that is not an issue then I would lower 6 & 5 (10) on an additional P4

If you like the setup w 4pedals & 6levers then the 6th string G#-G should be split w P0
The lowering of the 3rd string is not included since that would ruin the Maj7 found w LKLsplitP0 & P1. The G note is still available on string 1 w LKV.

       


   LKL LKR P0 P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR


F#----------------------------


D#--------------------------D-


G#----------G----A------------


E---F---Eb----------F#--------


B-------------C#----C#--Bb----


G#----------G----A------------


F#----------------------------


E---F---Eb----------F#--------


D---------------------------C#


B-------------C#--------Bb----


 


 


       LKL


   LKL     LKR  P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR


F#------------------------------


D#----------------------------D-


G#------G----------A------------


E---F-------Eb--------F#--------


B---------------C#----C#--Bb----


G#------G----------A------------


F#------------------------------


E---F-------Eb--------F#--------


D-----------------------------C#


B---------------C#--------Bb----


 


 


       LKL


   LKL     LKV LKR P0 P1 P2 P3 RKL RKR


F#----------G-------------------------


D#----------------------------------D-


G#-----------------------A------------


E---F-----------Eb----------F#--------


B---------------------C#----C#--Bb----


G#------G----------A#----A------------


F#----------G-------------------------


E---F-----------Eb----------F#--------


D-----------------------------------C#


B---------------------C#--------Bb----

The original setup w 3 + 4 is a good one I could play anytime. If you can afford a 4ped + 6lever setup w at least 2 pull rods for each lever you have everything for changing copedant to almost any setup.

B.Erlandsen

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 15 October 2004 at 04:42 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I'd keep what you have. The high F# to G thing can be done by reaching behind the bar with your ring finger and pulling the string. I think it even sounds better and looks cool too............JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

David Doggett · Posted 15 Oct 2004 7:48 am

If I were getting a new guitar, I'd realy try to cough up the small extra change to get a left vertical lever and a fourth pedal. Even if you don't presently know what to do with them, you will want them later, and they are great to have for experimenting with new changes. They are just so nice to have, and it is so much easier to get them on the guitar to start with rather than add them later.

As for specific changes, your copedent is pretty good. I recommend having your E lower lever also lower string 2 to C#. This keeps those top strings useful for minor scale stuff.

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

Gary I would recomend instead of the B to Bb on RKL,raise F#(1st string)to G# instead of G, and also raise your D#(2nd string) to E.
besides the purty unison notes on strings 1 and 3 with F# to G# raised and on strings 2 and 4 with your D# to E raised, there are some purty major, minor, and 7th chords using strings 1,2, and 5. I think John Hughey has this change and uses it quite often. If you have a vertical lever, you could put your B to Bb or G# to G there..
Terry

------------------
84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 15 October 2004 at 09:05 AM.]

[This message was edited by Terry Sneed on 15 October 2004 at 09:07 AM.]

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

David, if I put the 2nd string lower on the E-Eb lever, it removes the 7th note from the 7th chord using that string. How do you get around that?

Terry, you're probably right, I could add the LKV and put "something" on it. But I really find the vertical levers to be awkward. I may add a P0 for the G# to G and a P4 for the Paul Franklin change.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

What's wrong with the copedent that you're using now?

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

There's nothing wrong with what I have. I'm still playing a Carter Starter because I haven't scraped up enough money to pay all the costs from the fire - AND get a new steel. But I may be getting close to buying a new guitar. Maybe a Sierra or Carter. And when I do, I'm going to want more than just the Carter Starter copedent.

I've played both the Day and Emmons setup. I've had the E-string levers on both knees. I can see advanctages to both. Just wondering (again) what everyone else thinks. Trying to get my "perfect" setup. I went through the same ordeal a couple of years ago when I bought the new Sierra Session 12.

I'm closer now to knowing exactly what I want but I'm not sure that you can ever be certain when it comes to this instrument. There are just too many possibilities to explore.

Obviously, one needs to master the basics (A,B,C, and some levers) but then there's the personal stuff. Like the 8th string raise to F#. I love that one. The Carter Starter doesn't have it. It also doesn't have the D to C#. I like both of those changes.

I haven't much messed with changes on the 1st 2 strings yet but I'm sure I could find them useful if I had a guitar with pulls on those strings. Just looking for advice of what to try and examples of how to use the new pulls.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

I've updated the copedent (see above) with some suggestions from forum members that matched what I was already thinking.

I didn't know what to do with the LKV so I put a +C on it. I don't really like the vertical levers and I know I could get the same result from A+RKL.

So what are some better ideas for the LKV? I like the B to Bb where it is. And I see that there are no changes on either F# strings. Maybe I could use the LKV for a ++G# on the 1st string and something similar on the other F# string.

Also, you guys with the Paul Franklin pedal, why not pull the 10th string to A on that pedal too? I know I can't get the 3rd string to drop that low but it would be cool if I could.

And if I added a RKV for posterity, what might I put there and why?

Thanks for all the answers. I think threads like this one are cool.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Gary-

Earnest Bovine has an LKV raising str 5 from B to D. What's cool about this is that when you are A+B, and you'd like to move string 5 one more half-step to make it a sus chord, it's right there on LKV, and your pedals are down, so it's a good strong move.

In a Winnie Winston book Earnest loaned me, it seems many of the players of that era did a B-D with their LV.

-dean-

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

You don't need B to C if you have B to Bb and tunable splits.

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

I realize that the B to C is redundant because of the B to Bb lever.

The B to D is a long pull and I'm not sure what I'd ever do with it anyway. What about pulling the F# strings on the vertical lever? Anyone doing that?

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

Fred Amendola · From: Lancaster, Pa.

Gary,
Another couple things you could consider. You sounded open to other LKV ideas. You can split the Franklin pedal by lowering the 6th on the LKV, and lowering 5 and 10 a whole tone on the Franklin pedal. Then the changes are "split."
I agree with Bobby in that the F# raises are probably more important than B-Bb.
I lower the B's on the LKL front lever, which is normally out of the way. My E-F is on the primary LKL.
Just my two cents.
Fred

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

The most standard way is to put B to Bb on the vertical, and raise F# to G on a right lever (RKL, since you're already used to the D lever on RKR ).

Carter included a Bb lever on the Carter Starter because it's in Jeff Newman's courses. They put it on RKL because they didn't want to put a vertical lever on a student model. LKV is the standard position for this change, and it's what I'd recommend.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

By the way, consider that the F# to G change is often used with the F lever. If you're making an F chord in the key of C at the 4th fret (A+F), you need to raise your F# string to get the B note from the scale.

In other words, whenever you use A+F to get a IV chord, you'll probably need the G lever for melody notes in that position.

David Doggett · Posted 18 Oct 2004 6:04 am

Gary, regarding the 2nd string lowers, keep the D# to D lower on the usual RKR for the 7th. Many people also have a feel stop for the D, and also take that string down a full step to C#, which gives you a unison with the A pedal. But what I was talking about is to leave those changes on that lever, and also have your E lower lever lower string 2 down to C#. This gives you the 4th note of the minor scale, which I find more useful than having the 2nd string remain at D#, which to me seems redundant, since the fourth string is also at D# with that lever.

I also like b0b's suggestion of the LKV pulling the first string to G. I also have it pull my 7th string to G, so I can get a 7th on top or bottom with the AB pedals down. This may be hard to envision on paper, but in action this is a very natural move with the AB pedals down, and is very useful for rock and blues licks.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

A very knowing person suggested that I put the E-levers (to D# and to F) on my right leg. What say ye all to this?

Makes sense to me. I was thinking of changing the pedals back to the Day setup, put the E to D# on RKL and the E to F on RKR. That would move my X lever to LKR and the 2nd & 9th string lever to LKL. How does this sound to you all?

And you folks how play with extra levers, what do you think of them? Maybe an extra LKL or LKR.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Any time you change which knee does what, you have to retrain your reflexes. Changing your E levers from the left knee to the right is a pretty radical move. You will have to relearn every lick that you learned with them on the left, and then forget the way you used to play. Learning new stuff isn't hard, but forgetting the old is harder than you think!

I have songs in my head that I learned very well 20 years ago, and I can't play them at all today because I changed my knee levers around. It's not a good idea.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Gary Shepherd · From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA

Thanks for the input Bobby. I've already switched a couple of times on the knees and it hasn't really been a big deal for me. Maybe my thinker is better than my reflexer.

I've had the E-string lower on both knees and there are advantages to both. One thing I know for sure is that LKL is the most awkward thing on a pedal steel. As such, I figure that it should be the one that has the change that is used the least. And then LKV would be next in line for idle time. I'm comfortable with both inner levers and RKR is not so bad either.

But thanks for your ideas anyway. That's what I'm after.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Sierra Session 12

www.16tracks.com

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