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Topic: Restoring an Emmons Push Pull |
Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2015 8:18 pm |
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Okay,
I am just starting a mild restoration on my late 70's Emmons S12 Push Pull and I have quite a few questions regarding the process. I am hoping some of you pro's and hobbyists alike will chime in.
The guitar has a very noticable patch of scratches on the front apron leading into the upper metal trim. Is there a way to remove scratches from mica or will this need replaced? I have attached 2 photos trying to show the depth of the scratches.
Another Issue I would like to touch are the scratches in the end plates. Some are basic swirl marks, but there are some pretty severe scratches on the top edges of the plates. Can I just sand the scratches out graduating from 400 Grit to say....2000 Grit wet sandpaper? Then polish out with some mothers mag?
I also don't really want to disassemble the guitar if at all possible. Like I said I'm only looking to do a mild restoration. Down the road I plan on sending the guitar to a pro for a full Job.
Here are some photos of the end plates.
I have read a previous thread on restoring the shine back to mica and some have advised to use Meguier's Car show Glaze. I have looked everywhere locally (Walmart, Kmart, Advance Auto) and I don't think its being made anymore. Is there an up to date alternative thats readily available? I found this in my old man's garage but I'm not sure if its abrasive or not and don't want to remove the black color from the mica. What do you think?
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Ernie Renn
From:
Brainerd, Minnesota USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 1:55 am
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Mica: The first thing I'd try is toothpaste with a soft brush. It's abrasive, but milder. Wipe off with a damp cloth and then buff with a clean soft cloth.
End plates: I always used Semi-Chrome, a clean soft cloth and a bunch of elbow grease.
Best of luck!
_________________
My best,
Ernie
www.BuddyEmmons.com |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 4:26 am
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| I believe the product name is Simichrome, but it will not make your endplates shine like new when they are as scratchy as these ones. They will be better than they are now, but nowhere near a mirror finish – I have tried and failed. You need a very fine sanding and professional polishing, with the guitar taken apart. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 5:01 am
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If Emmons endplates are easily removed, take them an hour up the road or so to Blue Mountain Metal Finishing. Pretty darn good and reasonable price.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 12:35 pm
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depends on what your ultimate goal is. i'd clean it up a little, polish it up a little, let it be what it is. none of that affects the playability of it which is much more important.
start playing and creating good music. that gives the instrument value in it's own way.
your history on the forum seems to be dissatisfaction with your gear, where concentrating on the music end may be more rewarding.
i thought you sold this steel? |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 4:22 pm
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Those endplates are going to need bit more than just some Mothers or Simichrome. You can pull them easily without having to mess with anything else on the git. You don't even have to take the strings off, though you should de-tune them to remove pressure from the keyhead and changer. There are four 1/2x#10 philips screws into the body on each end, the tuner end has one nut through the keyhead and the changer end has two 7/64" allen screws. Remove all those and off they come. Cake.
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 6:12 pm
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| I just finished rebuilding a black mica guitar that had some scratches (not that bad) on it. I tried a lot of things but the best thing I found was to use metal polish on the mica first and then put a coat of good car wax on it and it will help mask them. You can't get them out. I took a sample piece and tried sanding it and then polishing and it did bring back a shin but it was a dull shine so that didn't work. As for the endplate, your approach to sanding and polishing is about the only thing you can do with that. Those are some pretty bad scratches. |
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Tim Russell
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 6:52 pm
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I've not worked with mica, but it would seem that one should be able to polish it out, in a similar way that those headlight polishing kits work. Starting with a mild grit (wet sanding or compound) and working to a finer grit.
Also, check youtube for "removing guitar scratches", etc. Some good info. to be found on there.
_________________
Sierra Crown D-10 |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 7:00 pm
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A scratch in aluminum has to be removed. Mothers is not abrasive. I sand them out using a sanding block to keep the surface flat without gouges and graduate grits of sandpaper then use red rubbing compound which is heavier cutting and then white rubbing compound which is finer abrasive then the Mothers or Semichrome. You just about need to remove the endplates and use a polishing machine. You can help the scratches in the mica by filling them with super glue then use a single edge razorblade with Scotch tape wrapped over the cutting edge at each end and scrape the top off the glue until it will not remove any more. This leaves the glue the thickness of the tape above the surface. You can then polish the glue with a cloth wrapped in a coin using fine rubbing compound. This works very well on small scratches or dents in a lacquer finish also. It takes some practice and experimentation to get it right. Depending on how glossy the mica is you might wind up with an area that is glossier or duller than the surrounding area. You might need to wipe some black ink into the scratch before using the superglue to seal it in.
^^Added** A neat trick for the aluminum trim on the front apron that is usually nicked on the top edge. I remove it (usually with hair dryer heat) turn it over and upside down and polish the back of it, tap the ends with a hammer to "reverse" the curve and use contact cement and stick it back on the guitar with that yukky edge concealed on the back of the trim and faced downward.
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/
Last edited by Jerry Roller on 13 Dec 2015 7:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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David Higginbotham
From:
Lake Charles, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 7:09 pm
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I had posted something similar to Jerry's comments at the same time Jerry posted. But, Jerry is an amazingly talented craftsman and he has actually taught me a great deal over the years. Jerry again proves how valuable and helpful the experience and advice some of our members possess and provide.
Dave |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 9:36 pm
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Thanks guys for all the helpful answers!
Again here comes Chris going off topic to give more life lessons. I guess I don't have time to restore a guitar and play another.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 9:45 pm
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| I wonder what Emmons charges for new endplates? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Dec 2015 10:42 pm
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no charge for the lessons!  |
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Mike Wilson
From:
Mansfield, Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 4:21 am
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| I have redone several Emmons guitars, and what Jerry Roller said is the way to go. |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 12:47 pm
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Jerry, how are you applying the super glue? Also do you mix the black ink with the glue or apply ink then glue? Are we talking standard crazy glue? Thanks
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Roy Peterman
From:
Muncy Valley, Pennsylvania
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 2:03 pm
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Jeff, if you want to save yourself some possible heartache, save some coins and take your Emmons to Billy Knowles for a recon. He does outstanding work, and he is not that far from you. If not, remove the endplates as Ian said, and take the endplates to Blue Mountain (like Lane said). They are relatively close to you. Keep in mind that if you are going to try to repair the mica that you should use some "good" super glue like Loc-tite super bonder. There are several types, one of them being "gap filling" which I have used with great results. Do as Jerry and David said, and you should be OK. A side note; I have used even a "sharpie" to darken the scratches in black mica before the super glue, and it worked well. (Wipe off the excess)
I hope this helps. |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 3:00 pm
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Thanks Roy, I have some water thin "hot Stuff" C & A glue that was too fast drying and thin for this application. I did use some black pen ink to darken the scratches. I am just unsure how to apply the glue. Should I apply straight from the bottle or should i wick it in with a tooth pick or something. Thanks
Found this on amazon. What ya think? http://www.amazon.com/Vibra-TITE-310-Toughened-Superglue-Filling/dp/B008D6F7HY
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 5:52 pm
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| Jeff Metz Jr. wrote: |
| Jerry, how are you applying the super glue? Also do you mix the black ink with the glue or apply ink then glue? Are we talking standard crazy glue? Thanks |
Use fresh, high-quality cyanoacrylate glue designed for lutherie. Stewart-McDonald is a great source. They even have a few special colored cyanos available, as well as dyes that will mix with clear cyano to make your own custom color to match your instrument.
http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Glues_and_Adhesives/Glues/StewMac_Super_Glues/ |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 6:02 pm
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Thanks everybody. I got the scratches colored and filled but in natural Jeff form I managed to screw up something. I buffed too much on the mica and now there is an ever so slight discoloration in the mica. I guess the only way to fix that is to replace the mica. Its not all that bad tho. just bums me out.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 7:27 pm
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You are exposing the phenolic substrate. P-lams are a super thin top color layer on a phenolic backer which is brown, UNLESS it's a solid color laminate, which is solid color all the way through. I doubt the original p lam is solid color laminate. STOP -- Chris is right - play the instrument.. 
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Carl Mesrobian
From:
Salem, Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 7:30 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| no charge for the lessons! |
How about some banjo rolls?? I like 2-4-2-4-3-4-1-4..
_________________
--carl
"The better it gets, the fewer of us know it." Ray Brown |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 14 Dec 2015 8:20 pm
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| Jeff, the front apron mica is the easiest to replace. The top and rear have to be mitered together, which requires a bit more finesse, but the front has the trim strips. The trickiest part on the front will be getting the aluminum trim off without kinking or curling it too much. Just take your time. A thin putty knife, a little heat and/or lacquer thinner to get the trim and old mica off. Some contact cement in a spray can from Home Depot to re-attach (3M "77" or similar), voila. Basic black should be easy to come by, call your local countertop installer and ask for a scrap. You can polish and/or reverse the trim strips while they're off too |
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Jeff Metz Jr.
From:
York, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2015 1:54 pm
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Thanks Ian.
_________________
Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112 |
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