Breaking strings

randy · From: shelbyville, illinois, usa

I've been using BE SIT's since I started playing out 12 years ago. I almost never break a G# anymore. I change about every two weeks.

I had to buy another brand a couple weeks ago due to time constraints before a show.

I broke the freakin G# during the third Intro. I thought I noticed it felt thinner when I was stringing the guitar.

Has anyone mic'd these different strings to see what they really measure?

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

I don't believe it's the size of the string that matters in breakage(as long as it's not 2 or 3 gauges off); I believe it's the quality of the metal used to make the string.
Ricky

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I haven't tried SIT's for a long time because of a situation I encountered about 20 years or so ago. I was playing 6 nights a week at a club in LA and using Ernie Ball strings exclusively. Blackie Taylor's Music had just started carrying SIT's so I got some from him to try out. I noticed that the high G# string (.011) required more pedal travel to bring it up to pitch on my old ShoBud. I readjusted the guitar and used it a couple of nights and decided to put the EB's back on. When I did that I had to readjust the guitar again. I always changed my 3rd and 5th strings every week then so I never broke one. Maybe the SIT's have more elasticity in the string or something. Have a good 'un...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 29 September 2004 at 11:53 AM.]

Mark Herrick · From: Bakersfield, CA

I'm not generally so compulsive as to use a micrometer on strings before installing them, but I have mic'd (is that a word?) strings that felt odd when taken out of the package. I have discovered .034's packaged as .036's. I've also found .020's and .017's that are off by a few .0001's, but considered that negligible.

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[This message was edited by Mark Herrick on 29 September 2004 at 12:09 PM.]

randy · From: shelbyville, illinois, usa

Thanks guys. I'm convinced that the GHS's were noticably thinner. Maybe they aren't always but they sure seemed like it that time. My new supply of SIT's got here and my confidence went back up to 2, (out of 10).

Jody Sanders · From: Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.

Hi Randy, I use the Silent Wound Series. They are packaged by SIT to Frenchy's specs. They are available at Frenchy's Pedal Steel Guitar Shop in Belen, NM. Available in nickel or stainless. These are semi-flat wound and have great tone . You get the brillience of a round wound string and the ease of playing of a flat wound string. Jody.

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

I have two Emmons S12s, both have locking nuts making it virtually a keyless. I buy .012 Rogue strings, (they're cheap ones I know at around 3 bucks a dozen), but I haven't broke a third on either guitar in nearly a year.

randy · From: shelbyville, illinois, usa

So you can use a 12 for the G#? Does it ave any impact on tone?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I've used 12s on the high string for several years. I like the fuller, richer tone it gives me. I always thought the lighter ones always sounded "thin".
Erv

David Doggett · Posted 5 Oct 2004 6:16 am

I use 0.012 for the high G# for loud gigs. They sound thicker and project better. They don't seem to break any more often. Jagwire sells an 0.0115, which has the most balanced sound. I always thought the 0.011 sounded too thin compared to the other strings.

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

I started using a .012 after attending a Jeff Newman seminar. Jeff told me to try them. I did. I like the thicker tone, and they break a lot less often

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

I'm "gunshy" because of my experiences of breaking strings at inapropriate moments.

..so, because of that, regardless of the brand I'm using, I always change the 3rd and 5th before any "under the lights" gig!

www.genejones.com

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

The "G#" is usually an 0.0110, 0.0115, or even 0.012. This string gets raised to at least an A very often, and often quite quickly and repetitivly. It is usually wrapped around the finger of the changer, the finger having a radius of from 0.5 to 1.0 inches. Sometimes it is held with a pin thru the ball, sometimes with a slot that captures the ball. In at least two cases it is not wrapped around the changer finger, but passes over it at a shallow angle and has the ball captured in a slot/hole.

On the other end, the string passes over a roller having either a V slot or a U slot. The rollers are of various diameters and the angle at which thew string passes over the rollers vary considerably. An alternative to the rollers is a fixed round bar in at least one case.

The finger and roller material (hardness) and surface finish vary quite a bit.

The neck lengths vary from about 24.0" to 25.5". The longer the neck, the higher the tension on a given diameter of string to get it to pitch, and the greater the tension change and string stretch when the changer is activated.

There are several types of bulk string materials used. They do NOT have the same bulk properties re tensile strength (pull to break), hardness (pressure to deform), elongation factor (stretch amount vs tension), and plasticity factors.

Most string materials for plain strings and wound string cores are drawn thru a die at a temperature and a rate to reduce their diameter to a desired size. The rate of reduction varies. Dies wear, temperature varies, hence the strings vary in surface finish, surface hardness, tensile strength, shear strength (tear and bending resistance) etc. even starting with the same bulk material.

Then there is the variation in diameter of the string from the nominal = tolerance.

One final variable is the wrap of the string around the ball. Wraps are of various types and tightnesses, and bend the string very tightly around itself.

Strings break at sharp bends, rough surfaces, points at which the vibration truncates/reflects, points of abrasion (where pick wear is most), where the ball wrap terminates, and the wrap even unwraps with tension.

The surface of the plain strings does not have the same properties as the center. The "G#" has a higher surface to volume ratio than larger strings, hence is more sensitive to manufacturing process variation than larger strings.

It is usually bulk material property values that are used for the calculation of the tensile strength quoted for strings. This is OK for larger diameter strings because these strings can withstand the tensions that they will see on the PSG by a good amount, ..not so the "G#". The tensions to be experianced range up to 34 pounds pull. Then there is the bending, contact deformation, vibration, pick abrasion, stretching, ..all of which have a lesser effect upon larger diameter strings.

The actual tensile strength of a given string material and process will increase greatly with a small increase in string diameter (say 0.0110 to 0.0115 to 0.120). The tension to get the string to pitch will increase also. The tensile strength increase is greater than the tension increase. Fatter is better for a "G#" until tone/sound/feel, or maybe ball wrap become an issue.

Where do your strings tend to break? It will depend upon your instruments structure, your playing technique, and the strings that you use, ..no one answer.

There is another force involved that is seldom stated or considered; The force associated with the string vibration. It becomes concentrated at the nut and at the bridge when the string is played open, and at the bridge and bar when the string is played closed, but always at the bridge(finger in most cases). This force is similar to that occuring in ultrasonic machining. It changes the shape of both the string and the material with which it is in contact.

All string failures are not for the same cause, nor in the same place; Instruments vary, strings vary, and players usage of both vary.

It would be nice if manufacturers would list the measured data on finished product failure points for tensile strength (straight string), tensile strength (at ball wrap), tension to cause unwrap at the ball, and diameter tolerances; and these by process lot(batch).

In my opinion, serious players should buy their "thin" strings in bulk, and unwound (straight); in the extreme, even the acid in some of the winder's/packager's hands can cause erosion on the string surface. The packaging of strings from the straight to the wound package is often farmed out and done in quite uncontrolled environments and conditions. I have known strings to sit around for many months (even years) in uncontrolled storage areas before being packaged.

Another long rant re PSG equipment properties that will interest only a few, but the string break issue keeps coming back.

randy · From: shelbyville, illinois, usa

Ed, so what is your conclusion about the tone of a 12 guage string, heh...heh.

Thanks, I'm going to try the 12 and see if I can hear a difference.

My drummer says he can't hear the kick-off note on "want you to want me". Maybe this will fix that.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Randy, ..and the conclusion is, ..if you like it, use it. Different folks will have different opinions. I like them.

jim milewski · From: stowe, vermont

I think the .012s sound fuller and I like stiff strings because of the resistance against the picks, another thing I do is lay about 8 pages worth of newspaper under my strings and with a clean cotton cloth wipe the strings with acetone or electric cleaner, it brings back the brightness as it cleans the oil from the windings, you don't want any of this stuff to get on any part of the guitar other than the strings

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Jim, can you elaborate on this locking nut? Is this a retrofit and do you know if this device or parts are available for other guitars? Thanx in advance.

I have also used the .012 on 3rd G# for several years. They do seem to last maybe a tad longer. It depends on the string quality. I have had bad strings from nearly all mfgs. Sometimes you get a bad one or a whole pkg. of bad ones.
I recently changed a 3rd. on a Mullen D10 that I bought 1 yr. earlier. The G# had been on it that long. I only changed it as a preventive measure prior to an important show. Now, I can't get one to last more than 2-3 gigs. Go figure.

John Bresler R.I.P. · From: Thornton, Colorado

Ditto to Jody Sanders post. I switched to Frenchy's strings which are manufactured by SIT and just don't break strings anymore!! Frenchy is a great person to deal with, also!

Walter Haynes · From: Bullard.Texas, R.I.P.

I put a set of Jagwires's on one of my guitars and left them on for about 4 months just to see how long it would take to break a third! I play every day and haven't broke one yet. I use a 11 and a half on the G# for a thicker tone and finally had to use a pair of cutters to get the dang thing off!! If you are breaking a lot of third strings why not try Jagwires but be sure and have your cutters handy-----

Walter Haynes

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

but do keep in mind that having a string on the Steel for 6 months and playing everyday may equate to 2 weeks for another player who has practice excersises which really tear the 3rd string to beejeesus..

On the "mash the pedal meter"..how many rapid B pedal mashes do ya get per string ? Who knows..A lot I think..

If your sittin' at home woodsheding with speed pickin' phrases for an hour or two each day for 2 weeks..that may equate to a year of playing Mansion on the Hill..

A tank of gas still only lasts 350 miles..regardless of how long it takes ya to drive the 350 miles..

I currently have SIT .011 3rd's..but have been using Cobra .011's. ..no issues ..polish the bridge ,keep the roller smooth and be sure you have a good wrap and it should be a good day.

Sure there are some bum strings,,but I think we have arrived at a point where pretty much most brands are pretty consistent..if they want to stay in business that is..

happy 3rd string..
t

Roger Edgington · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

It might be interesting to put a click meter on the B pedal and see how many times the G# string is raised and lowered before breaking although I realize there are other factors.

Frank McBride · From: Clendenin, West Virginia, USA

Never broke a string---MULLEN HWP--Jagwire strings, The changer is what breaks a string, check out the changer on a HWP.{black metal}

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I think Bill Rudolph at Williams has the right approach. He reduced the angle that the string is bent at the changer. From all reports, that has helped greatly in reducing string breakage. BTW, he has the patent on it. He also has just received a patent on his crossover mechanism. Ask b0b how he likes his!

Erv

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 13 October 2004 at 07:58 AM.]

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