Parallax phenomenon: can anyone enlighten me?

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Hey there -- I was talking with a guy about a month ago at a gig where I was playing my D-8 Stringmaster. After the gig, he comes up and asks me how I have my necks tuned. I told him, and then he said, "Do you have each note exactly straight up?" (meaning that the needle is straight up, dead-on center on the tuner when tuning a note). I said yes. He said "Well, you really shouldn't do that, if you want to avoid parallax. You're playing in a mean tuning, instead of tempered." I understand the difference between mean/tempered tuning, but Parallax? I've heard about it in reference to astronomy, but I'm not sure how it relates to tuning my steel.

So this means that I have I been hopelessly out of tune all this time? It sure didn't sound that way to my ears, and I think I have pretty good ears. I definitely does NOT sound like mean tuning. I've heard that, and it ain't pretty. I practice my octave's often, to train myself to keep the bar perpendicular to the strings, and be in tune, but now I'm wondering...

Can anyone tell me how I should be tuning each note then? Now that I think about it, I'm going to have to get out my Cindy Cashdollar video again, because I do remember wondering why she says in it that she tunes some notes just a few cents flat, and some a few cents sharp. I guess at the time, it just sounded more like an idiosyncrasy of hers, and I took no further notice.

Thanks in advance for any/all information on this subject!

Slide on...
TJW

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Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6) through a vintage Super Reverb

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

I can describe parallax as it applies to playing the steel guitar, but I won't attempt to relate it what tuning temperament you use. And that's because I'm unsure whether it applies or not. Maybe the guy you were talking to knows a lot more than I do

So parallax. On the steel the strings are some distance above the fretboard right? Your eyeballs are maybe centered above your 24th fret or thereabouts, maybe closer to the 18th?

Assuming your head stays relatively steady while playing, suppose you place your bar over the 2nd fret to where you think its right over the fret (with your head in its normal playing position).

Now move your head directly over your bar, close one eye and see if the bar is really centered over the 2nd fret. For lots of people it won't be. If it's not, keep your head over your bar, center the bar, then move your head back to its normal playing position. Maybe it doesn't look so centered from there, but you know it is because you just centered it.

So this is what parallax or aligning something from an angle (the bar) can do to a steel player. It can contribute to bad intonation. If you're lucky and you're already compensating for this, parallax isn't giving you a problem.

Some other comments - the higher your strings off the fretboard, the more exaggerated the effect is. And also the apparent off-centering changes as your bar gets closer to your eyes when you go to higher frets.

But this is no big deal. As humans, we deal with it in all kinds of ways - hitting a baseball, driving a car, reaching for a coffee cup, etc. You just realize it's a factor and learn to compensate.

Hope this helps, and sorry I can't connect it with temper tuning.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I don't see how parallax relates to the tuning system at all. Parallax can affect our bar placement and make us sound sharp or flat, but it doesn't have anything to do with how the strings are tuned in relation to each other.

On a Sierra, the strings are higher above the fretboard than on most other brands. In 1996 I sold my Sierra Crown and bought a new Sierra Session with the longer 25" scale. As I practiced it at home I thought I was sounding pretty good on it, but I noticed on the bandstand that I was often sharp on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret. The difference in parallax between the new and the old guitar was what threw me out.

For a while I had to make a conscious effort to "aim low" on the low frets on the Session guitar. I'm used to it now, but it did take a while to retrain my instincts.

On my Stringmaster, the strings are close enough to the fretboard that I don't consider parallax to be much of an issue. Maybe if you have a 26" scale you'd notice it at the low frets. Mine is 24 1/4".

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 25 May 2001 at 12:27 PM.]

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

Thanks for the explanations. They make total sense to me. Fortunately, although I DO look at the postition lines, I really try to rely on my ears to make sure that what I'm doing is in tune. With a 22.5" scale instrument, it works out OK.

How about that tuning question then? Is there a way to "temper" the intonation by tuning the third and fifth a few cents in either direction? On Cindy Cashdollar's tape, she says a lot of players tune their fifth just a couple cents sharp, and the third and sixth notes a few cents flat. I haven't tried this, but I can see where it would, if done correctly, mellow out the harshness of a strict tuning, with everything at concert 440.

Anyone else do this?

Thanks again,
TJW

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Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6) through a vintage Super Reverb

Rick Aiello · From: Berryville, VA USA

Yeah, doesn't sound like that guy knew what he was talking about. As far as tuning "straight up" there are hundreds of threads about Equal Temperment vs. Just Intonation to look at. I have a list of JI deviations from ET if anyone is interested:

Scale Tone Deviation from ET (cents)
1 0
2 +4
3b +16
3 -14
4 -2
5b +31
5 +2
5# +14
6 -16
7b +18
7 -12
8 0

I believe these are correct - I'm sure someone will quickly correct me if I messed any up. Sure is nice being able to play in JI. Read some of the mess over there in the Pedal Steel section... Oh my!!!

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 May 2001 at 01:15 PM.]

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 25 May 2001 at 01:19 PM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Gotta go along with b0bby on this one. Oft' times in life, words are used that have absolutely no correlelation to what they mean.

When one adds this to the oft' opined phrase.

"He knows enough about a subject to be......"

you get statements like your friend, made. Parallax error has absolutely nothing to do with the tuning of an instrument.

The above posters are indeed correct.

carl

Todd Weger · From: Safety Harbor, FLAUSA

I should note that the guy who told me this is more of an acquaintence than friend. When he told me this, I sort of thought that he was a bit... um... full of it. I had just gotten done playing one of the best gigs of my life, and really hit the target. He's one of these guys who seems to be an, er... authority on all subjects. Go figure!

Thanks again. I appreciate all the input. As always, I will keep doing what I've always done, which is TRUST MY EARS. They haven't let me down, yet!

TJW

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Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6) through a vintage Super Reverb

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It's best to just tune by ear so that there are no "beats" in the 2-note harmonies. When I have to use a tuner because of a noisy environment, I tune like this:

roots, fourths, fifths: 0
thirds, sixths: -10 cents
sevenths: +10 cents

So a C13 would look like this:

E  -10


C  0


A  -10


G  0


E  -10


C  0


Bb +10

I use 10 cents because its real easy to see on the meter (2 notches). If your markings are Hz, use 440 for the roots, 438 for the thirds and 442 for the sevenths.

If your a stickler for details, you can use Rick's numbers (above). They don't give you much room for error, though. My numbers are a little more forgiving if your guitar tuning tends to drift a bit.

A point of confusion is 9ths. If you play it mostly with the 7th, you should tune it to -0-, but if you play it mostly with the 6th you should tune it to -10.

However you tune, you can correct small intonation problems by ear with small slants. Jerry Byrd blew my mind on a recording once. He was playing an A note against a C chord, and the progression went to D7. He raised the note just a little bit to be in tune with the new chord. Wow!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 26 May 2001 at 08:46 AM.]

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Another point if you're going down this road. Many people play a C6 with a low C# note. This C# is intended to be the 3rd of an A7 chord, and the A is tuned flat already. So the C# has to be tuned doubly flat.

If I were using a tuner, I'd tune the C# to -20 cents. By ear I tune it beatless to the E and A strings.

Bob Stone · From: Gainesville, FL, USA

Interesting thread.

Getting back to parallax, are the Fenders and Bakelite Rics designed with low action to minimize parallax? It would seem so. Are there any Forumites out there who remember if those were considerations when these guitars were new?

Has anyone ever seen a steel guitar with a compensated bridge saddle? Most good "Spanish neck" guitars have 'em. Why not steels? I think Stelling was even makin banjos with compensated nuts (and saddles).

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

I had a suit made out of parallax once, it was miserable on a hot day.

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