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Topic: Developing Better Lines Using Arpeggios |
Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 29 Oct 2015 3:14 pm |
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I am an advocate of chordal thinking when it comes to soloing over harmonic changes. I think that recent trends in jazz education have not served developing improvisers well. My objections are well articulated in this blog post.
http://stevetres.com/2015/10/where-jazz-theory-got-it-wrong/
But wherever you sit in the chords v scales discussion, the fact is that the inherent limitations of lap steel make fast scalar playing difficult. I think a major part of the problem is that multiple changes in direction of the hand are required to complete long scalar passages and with resulting intonation problems at faster speeds.
It is true that open strings can be used to achieve velocity but their use has a couple of drawbacks.
a) Open strings are optimal in certain keys and for certain scales. Yes, capos can be used to extend that use but in harmonically dense music with plenty of modulations, open strings are not a practical option.
b) When open strings are used the player gives up a degree of control over the string for the period that it is ringing. No vibrato or inflection of the note is possible. Articulation options are limited as are blocking options. In the example below, while the open stringed example can be executed much more quickly, the fretted example can be played more expressively with infinitely more options available to the player. For me this is one of the major elements that differentiate the sound of “dobro†from that of “acoustic steel guitarâ€.
In the interest of developing more interesting lines, chordal study is useful. So here is a little arpeggio etude on the ‘Misty’ chord changes. This piece is not intended as a solo but rather as a mental ‘mapping’ exercise. The hope is that it will help with background knowledge and muscle memory for improvisation. The aim is basically to learn the neck better to facilitate better chord-oriented lines. I was introduced to this compositional learning method by Steve Erquiaga, a great player and educator from the Bay area. I was lucky to have had a lesson with him when he was here in South Australia many years ago in a Jamey Aebersold clinic.
The given chord names describe the arpeggios for the most part with just a few passing notes here and there. The harmonic complexity could be varied as required. The aim is to get a reasonable melodic line that gives some regard to voice leading between each chord voicing.
The chord voicings here are mainly derived from three basic positions of major triads that this tuning yields. I am calling them I, V and IIIV in line with the fret on which the root of each one falls. These provide a schema to which other chords can be related and thus more easily recalled. So it is basically position playing.
This exercise provides a few other benefits. It is useful for learning and being able to differentiate the sounds of these chords. It is useful as a blocking exercise. It is also beneficial in developing intonation because to play it reading you can’t take your eyes off the page and so can’t use visual cues. It is quite hard to hold pitch across the whole exercise. The occasional open string provides a correction tone. Maybe I should have included a few more.
So this is just an example of one tune on one tuning. You could write a completely different line on this same tune. Additional variables are the key of the tune, the harmonic language that you use (triad, seventh, extended, altered or substitute chords), the tuning to be used, and the piece to be practiced. I find that I make progress with each exercise that I write. The beauty of this approach is that you can take your time to explore different chords and voicings and also to work carefully on the best way to fret them. The downside is that it takes time and effort.
Audio: https://soundcloud.com/guy-cundell/mistral
Last edited by Guy Cundell on 30 Oct 2015 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 29 Oct 2015 5:18 pm
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That is an interesting piece for discussion (the Steve Tres article). I'm not sure I agree with him, but the jazz and improvisation universe is vast. I don't really have a solid position at all, being a free spirit and a stylistic drifter, but I have been trying to develop a style of improv that fits naturally with the instrument and it's tunings, while trying to keep it interesting and unpredictable, but also coherent and soulful. I don't want to sound like a hotshot trying to make all the changes, but have more of an overall picture of the harmonic movement coupled with development of the melody. I am also aware of the fact that lap steel will probably never be widely accepted on the bandstand with "straight ahead" or traditional outfits in my lifetime.
I'd just like to say that you presented this very nicely and I think it will be useful for many of the players here looking to expand and understand how to improvise over changes. Well done!
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Oct 2015 6:09 pm
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Very nice! I just love the sound of the resonator guitar. That kind of stuff is really challenging in standard dobro tuning.
If I would practice every day, that piece would make it into the 'daily exercise' folder.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 30 Oct 2015 9:34 pm
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Thanks for the feedback, Mike and Ulrich. Ulrich, I put that last chord in for you. 
Mike, my gypsy jazz mates looked a bit doubtful when I started with them but they are coming around. Actually the acoustic steel comes into its own as a lead melody instrument in that context, in the absence of fiddles or even doubling them. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 30 Oct 2015 11:58 pm
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This is a great post.
I am noticing more and more that modes would be a lot better if someone created jazz modes. That are actually used. Cause I'll be honest as I'm listening and studying more I rarely hear someone rip through modes. It's like they choose a piece and then switch to a chord arpeggios then back.
I remember watching recently sheryl Bailey with her microcosmic bebop line. And it is a bunch of arpeggios joined together to sound like a scale. Apparently you can do it over most jazz changes. But she explains it from a modal understanding. That sucks.
She says like now if we flatten the 5th and sharpen the 4th of the blah blah blah.
It would be nice if She said the notes are c, g etc.
So then when I hear her explain it I soon realise. Back to learning modes again and that I'm not ready to learn her lines until I understand what modes she is referring to.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2015 12:27 pm
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Stephan -
It sounds to me like you are in danger of overthinking the problem.
No doubt that there is a lot of hard work involved, but after watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgBKHJc7eDo
(I have not heard of her before), it sounds to me as if she is coming straight out a Pat Martino tradition.
Now, "Along Came Betty" is a very hard song, as are most Benny Golson compositions really, she sounds great on it.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 1 Nov 2015 12:27 am
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She is a Wes Montgomery replica. Very versatile guitarist with an awesome technique and tone.
I have found some lessons where she explains a little clearer with notes from the chord (arpeggios) but mainly she always jumps on modes. But almost never uses modes.
She lives in arpeggios and connects them. Like Wes did. He didn't know modes just chord shapes.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Michael James
From:
La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2015 10:10 am
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Here's some food for thought.
Have you ever played a solo that had theoretically all the right notes and still sounded bad or boring? Speaking for myself as a jazz guitarist I had about 10 years of those kind of solo.
One day I realized that harmonic choices are not as important as we think. Yes, they are important but with out the other REALLY important thing a solo will be doomed for failure.
This most important ingredient is you note rhythm choices. With out this a solo will never speak to the listener.
Here's some simple way to develop your soloing rhythm skills.
1. Use rhythms that start and/or stop on an up beat.
For example
|1+2+----| End on an up beat.
|-+2+3---| Starts on an up beat.
|---+3+--| Starts and stops on an up beat.
2. Use the syncopated rhythms more than once to develop a melodic rhythm pattern.
3. Look at the structure of the tune and make rhythms that fit that tune.
For example: Take The A Train
|C / / / |C / / / |D7 / / / |D7 / / / |
|Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |C / / / |C / / / |
We start with two measures of "C".
Make two measure rhythm pattern.
Then we have D7 for two measures.
Use the same rhythm pattern you made for C but change the notes to fit D7.
Next we have Dm7 for one measure. '
Make a new one measure rhythm.
For G7 use the same rhythm that you used over Dm7, and change the notes to fit the chord. You may not have to change the notes if they fit.
Please understand, this is only a start to this way of thinking. As you grow rhythmically you will be able to push the boundaries to their limits. You have to walk before you can run.
Stop thinking so much about the notes and put equal or more time into your rhythmic development. You will amaze yourself.
mj
www.michaeljames.info |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 1 Nov 2015 11:31 am
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 1 Nov 2015 4:05 pm
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definitely will give it a try.
Modes are currently doing my head in. 
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 1 Nov 2015 4:40 pm
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I agree with Michael James: rhythmic phrasing is more important, or at least as important as note choices. However, knowing your scales in this regard enables you to establish relationships between notes in a phrase even if they are not diatonic to the tune.
Most of this is, FWIW, applicable in situations where the music is tolerant of harmonic tension, but in improvisation there are openings you can take advantage of to insert something outside that sounds inside. And the more rhythmically lucid the idea is, it tricks the ear into accepting the outside or non-diatonic phrases.
The whole artistic process involves learning and determining for yourself what you want to present. It's really refreshing to see this discussion here. 
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Robert Zaporzan
From:
Honolulu, HI
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Posted 9 Nov 2015 1:37 pm
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| This is a great discussion, folks. Whether modal, scalar, or position playing, it is all grist for the mill. I am dismayed by the hard bop guitarists who pick up a steel, and then are disappointed that the "limitations" of the instrument do not allow warp drive improv solos. What Guy suggests is not a way around this, but a more practical approach to this problem. The beauty of our instrument, be it dobro or steel, is that we have the ability to morph chords into one another. I would prefer to hear this approach to jazz soloing much more than a Joe Pass (Don't get me wrong, love the guy) type of high velocity pyrotechnic that does not use what the instrument is capable of achieving. Agree with Mike that the idea is to continually expand the capabilities of the instrument, but to bemoan the fact that scalar soloing at speed is difficult... just play guitar , or tack piano if the object is speed for speed's sake. Instead of thinking about the limitations, why can we not consider the possibilities the instrument has which make it unique? |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 9 Nov 2015 11:52 pm
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Question:
When learning modes be honest.
Do you say each note as you are practicing
Or do you get enticed by speed.
In comparison I am learning round midnight and am finding modes in their entirety are almost useless. I am finding it is quite Common for non modal movements.
String skips and note jumping for melody playing. Some perfectly laid out while others have a more drastic jump.
I have figured out one really cool dissonant scale that is used by a few players. While pivoting off of m7b5 chords.
Licks can't be the way. Common jazz scales must be. Modes seem to miss the essence of it.
All I want to know is how. And I feel this thread some players know what I'm talking about.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 10 Nov 2015 12:06 am
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I think the part that gets me is that in jazz
Some say classical modes are the way
So I learn those get frustrated cause it isn't doesn't sound melodic or practical at all.
Analogy:
And learning it feels like
Learning the entire dictionary but I want common phrases and colloquial expressions.
Learning the dictionary can't teach that.
It is a language after all. Think about it. Am I so far off.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 10 Nov 2015 2:08 am
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Oh by the way
I wish I were knowledgeable enough to even know how to play hard bop or any bop for that matter. In time in time.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Nov 2015 5:52 am
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just signed up
I'm on it. stay tuned.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 11 Nov 2015 6:02 am
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Man I'm so excited. I can't wait to get home after work.
Sheryl is one of my fav guitarists. She can play wes note for note octave for octave. She is the living embodiment of his playing. Awesomeness.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Brian Evans
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 4:07 am
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| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
I think the part that gets me is that in jazz
Some say classical modes are the way
So I learn those get frustrated cause it isn't doesn't sound melodic or practical at all.
Analogy:
And learning it feels like
Learning the entire dictionary but I want common phrases and colloquial expressions.
Learning the dictionary can't teach that.
It is a language after all. Think about it. Am I so far off. |
I thought about your post for a while, and yesterday I came up with a way to try to explain one relevance of modes. They are just a way to let you know what notes would sound nice and pleasant over a certain chord in a certain key. For example, you see a Dm7 chord. It might be a II chord in C major and be followed by a V chord, for a classic II-V-I resolution, and you might play notes out of the second mode (all natural notes). It might be a III chord in Bb, and you might play the III mode scale in Bb, so you would throw in an Eb instead of E. It might be a VI chord in key of F, and you might use yet another scale, the 6th mode in F, which has a Bb note. Depending on the tune and the leading and following chords, you would have number of options for what notes you could play, and modes are a way of helping organize that. Modes also can help you emphasize harmonic shifts or modulations.
For example, "All The Things You Are" is a classic jazz standard in Ab. The A section starts with an Fm7 chord, which is the 6th mode of Ab, then goes to a classic II-V-I to resolve to AbM7, then the last two bars modulate to key of C with a G7 (V chord in C) resolving to a CM7. You would see that the G7 indicates a shift in the harmonic sense, and might choose notes from the C major V and I modes to emphasize that shift.
Just a thought on the subject. My other thought is that the great jazz players I know well enough to talk to have this stuff down like hot butter on toast. It is so deeply imbedded that they don't even think about it. So one of the keys to modes is to learn them well enough to forget about them... |
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Brian Evans
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 4:43 am
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| And to cycle back to the original post in this thread, which I thought was a great and insightful idea, I was driving down to see my friend Amy, who is not only a great jazz player but is doing a Master's degree in Composition and Improvisation. Part of her thesis is learning how guitar players learn the fretboard, and to that end I am part of a study to test how different teaching methods actually help you learn the fretboard (the idea being to be able to play any note on any string anywhere, instantly and without pausing to think). So I am doing the test, and bouncing this mode idea off her (she's like "Duh, that's why they invented modes") and we talk about how it isn't helping me play any different. She says to take a tune, a 12 bar blues or a tune like "All The Things You Are", and improvise using only the chord tones, or just improvise using the arpeggio's for each chord. Which if you think about it is pretty much what Guy was explaining in his first post, but I am supposed to improvise the whole arpeggio etude, not write it down. We'll see if that happens... |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 4:55 am
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IMHO, one of the best ways to tackle jazz improvisation on any instrument is to ....
a) learn the chords and melody so they are completely memorized
b) play arpeggios (in multiple positions) for each chord change
c) learn to superimpose more complex and/or substitute arpeggios over the basic chords. e.g. play Dm7 over G7.
Mimi Fox's book explains all this extremely well; very simply and logically via common jazz standards like Autumn Leaves, Summertime, Night & Day, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Arpeggio-Studies-Jazz-Standards/dp/0786687711/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447332697&sr=1-1&keywords=arpeggios+mimi+fox
I have personally found that modal thinking clogs up my thought process and I can't access the info in real time. I can remember arpeggios and other visual patterns pretty well. But then again, I have never put significant time into really trying to do this at a high level. Too lazy and /or distracted by other stuff I guess.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 5:20 am
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Learn the language by listening, transcribing, and singing lines.
When you have all the facts (the knowledge of scales, harmony, etc.) you can begin to understand and break down what is going on.
By doing exercises like Guy's, you are opening up your ears to hearing harmonic events and training yourself to play them. You can even play those types of moving harmonies over static chords, which is what all the best improvisers do. Just listen to John Scofield: he does not always play scales over a chord, but often implies other harmonic movement with his lines. And not everything has to make complete logical sense, either. Your job is to figure out what sounds good to YOU.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 8:40 am
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Modal improv has a great way of bringing the individual flavor of the mode to the table. When I was working on modes on guitar, i found it tedious to learn/categorize each mode from the root of the current chord, i.e.; Am dorian being memorized/accessed as A B C D E F# G A… I tend to think of modes in what I call a "subtractive" process, as in "what major scale will give me the mode I want over this chord". For a dorian example, it's simply the major scale a whole step down. Many people can rip a bunch of stuff in G major (especially dobroists) and it's a simple matter to fly through the same ideas, but referencing the A tonal centers. Each mode can be thought of the same way. The Locrian, for example, is usually referenced to the m7b5 chord, but it's also a fine substitute for the 57 in it's parent key… or G major scale= F# Locrian subbed over D7… so I think down a fifth or up a fourth over the 57 chord, or wanting a dominant sound in D.
Anybody else looking at them this way?
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 1:02 pm
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I watched a video with Jimmy Bruno who was saying he looks at modes as one simple major scale starting from different degrees.
So I am starting to see the benefit to that way of thinking. He would apply the Cmajor scale over the I then start from the D for the Dorian etc.
Essentially learning the major scale shapes and simply starting from the various degrees all over the neck. This is starting to teach me interval relationships. So essentially this theory could be applied with the melodic minor scale and its modes.
Just wondering is there a clearer way of saying like. Major 7 you can apply a ionian scale scale minor 7 apply a Dorian or locrian 7ths a mixoloydian etc. But also include arpeggios into the scale?
Likewise with bebop scales.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2015 4:34 pm
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Don't make your life so hard...
| Code: |
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 3 5 7
9 11 13 |
That is all the same for ALL diatonic modes, or rather 7 note scales, e.g. melodic and harmonic minor.
| Code: |
D E F G A B C D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
1 3 5 7
9 11 13 |
As you can see 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 is the basic 4-note chord, or arpeggio if played consecutively.
9 - 11 - 13 are upper extensions.
In addition to that in chords there is mentioning of "avoid notes":
e.g. the F in C ionian: minor 2nd/9th interval against the third of the chord.
similarly, the 13 from D dorian, creating a tritone interval with the third of the chord thus rather suggesting a G7 dominant something chord than a minor chord.
And so on and so forth...
In my opinion that's all there is to know about modes.
_________________
Redline Resophonic
MSA Superslide 12-string Reece Anderson tuning, dropped down to B
MSA “The Universal†in Reece Andersons Bb universal tuning, raised to B
TomKat Amp
how I earn a living |
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