Fender 400-800-1000-2000 guys... thoughts on this project.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I have found another 800 in good mechanical shape, and am finalizing the shipping charges as we speak... It was set up by Blackie Taylor out in California so it should be playing well..6 pedal.
I have plans of making it a 6+4...

I have been in contact with forumite Michael Yahl.. He builds nice looking parts.. Check out this knee lever-
http://www.psgparts.com/images/DSC_2041.jpg
The lever mounts directly to the cross shaft which I like... The ones he has are 3/8, but he will make me 4 with a 5/16 hole.. I plan on using 5/16 aluminum rod for shafts, and perhaps using Bud style 2 hole puller/bellcranks or MSA type bellcranks, IF I can find something with a 5/16 hole... I plan on using 1/8 brass or aluminum rod from the bellcrank to the changer... Not sure as yet how I will attach the stainless wire loops that hook to the changer to the pull rods, but thats a small matter right now... Because of the design of the levers, and the fact I plan on not using any reversing mechanism on the RKR and LKR I will have to space the cross shafts fairly far from the body of the guitar to gain clearance for the bellcranks... Any problem with that??.. Should I just use a reversing lever set up?...
It would seem an "upside down" bellcrank would work every bit as well as one facing down as long as there is clearance.

Anyway, I will need some help when I start working on this guitar, mostly just in design and implementation of the knee lever set up.. My last 800 was a wreck when I got it, and after 2 weeks of cleaning, lubing, adjusting,it played as well as any steel around, and never went out of tune... It had 3 knees made of wood back in the 60's, which used all stock Fender cable parts hooked to the levers with hog rings.. Crude but ingenious, and worked perfectly.
I want a little nicer , more modern knee lever set up on this one... Any thoughts from guys that have been there would be a great help.. Price is a factor.. I don't want to spend $600 in levers on a $750 guitar if I can help it... With the ideas I have right now, I can probably come in at around $175 or so... maybe less.. As always, any help would be appreciated... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Bob, the upside down bellcrank(s) should be fine. I have two BMI guitars and on both of them the LKR crossrods are near the bottom of the guitar(s) with the bellcranks facing up toward the top. They work very easily and are spot on for efficiency as they're a "direct pull" without the reversing mechanism..........JH in Va.
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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

For the knee levers going right, Emmons three piece knee levers work well and you can use a cable soldered into a tube that is soldered to a length of 1/8th stainless rod to mount to the knee.

For knee levers going left, I used very low profile JCH knees on square cross shafts. Left moving knees I use 3/32 pull rods rather than cables. On the end of the rod I thread the brass tube/wire hook pieces that are used to tune the changer at the endplate. To keep the pull rod loops from falling off the changer finger, I snug up the fit with a piece of shrink tubing. This is especially important on an E that gets raised to F and also F#.

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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

The most important thing is that you keep the knees low profile so the guitar will still fit in the case.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Dennis Brown · From: Gowen, Mi. USA

Hey Bob, imagine setting behind your steel and putting your knees thru a pair of horseshoe shaped aluminum stock. I know it sounds funny but, The horse shoe is mounted to a piece of 1/4" x 1" x approx 8" long aluminum flat stock that swivels at the center point, mounted on the cross supports of your Fender steel. This will let you move the horseshoe lever in both directions. A few inches from each side of that center swivel point is a cable pull. Depending which way you swing the horseshoe lever it will pull your cables. It's a very simple knee lever set up. You can make this out of one 4' piece of stock aluminum found at your hardware. Just add adjusting stops and your done. I removed my horeshoe levers with a wing nut so I can use the case. I'll try to make a rough drawing and get it to you. Dennis

Dennis Brown · From: Gowen, Mi. USA

Heres a real rough drawing Bob. This was a design from a mechanical engineer, my friend Pete Domier out of Grand Rapids Mi. It worked very well. You can control the pedal travel by relocating the cable pulls in or out from the pivit (swivel) point. Sorry about the poor art. I Hope it helps you. It's simple and cheap. You can do this with hand tools. Good Luck. Dennis

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

Bob, when I saw this post I went out and mocked up an assembly. I have the materials for the wire loop and brass barrels. the barrel can be tapped on the backside to thread the rod into. I'll make MSA style clamps with 5/16" shaft holes in addition to the knee clamps with 5/16" holes. I have all the other parts already. Distance from cabinet to shaft C/L would be 1.125" and 2.625" to the top of the knee clamp in the folded state.
Flipping the clamp over to the top would give you a reverse action.

_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Just remember, you cannot have the pull rods fixed at the bellcrank because the loop is essentially fixed at the changer finger hook. Besides allowing a double raise, the rods being able to slide through the bellcrank swivel will allow the bellcrank to fold flat so the guitar will fit in the case.
Speaking from experience with the two 10 pedal 2 knee lever 400s I made.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Michael and Bob
I would urge you to listen to Chris' advice regarding these customizations. You don't want to create something that requires a new case to carry it.
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My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

I still think the Red Rhodes gate hinge knee levers are the way to go! Very Happy

Inexpensive too!

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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

Herb, yes I understand that. That's why I gave the overall height of the assembly with the lever folded as I have no idea as to the depth of this guitar. I know from pictures that these cases aren't much thicker than a regular guitar case. Is this correct? Do you have any ideas or references that you may have seen?

Chris, if I understand you correctly, the link between the bellcrank and the finger loop should have a section of cable in it for it to remain flexible enough that when another raise/lower is activated, the loop is not forced off of the finger?

I wish that someone near me had one of these so that I could get a firsthand look at one.

I've had several requests for knee lever arrangements for these Fenders and would like to provide a solution.

Please enlighten me!
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Michael Yahl · From: Troy, Texas!

Thanks Bob, good talking to you.

To all of you that have knowledge of these guitars, I welcome any and all tips, tricks, improvements, and mostly pitfalls that I need to watch for as like I said, I have no experience with these guitars and will be relying on those of you that do.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Michael
_________________
"Don't fergit to kiss yer horse!"
'72 Sho-Bud Professional D10, (in pieces .....), '78 MSA Classic XL D10, '69 Emmons PP, Fender 2000
Peavey Session 500 BW, Crate Digital Modeling Amp

PSG PARTS
http://www.psgparts.com/

Michael Maddex · From: Northern New Mexico, USA

FWIW, there is alot of discussion of Fender Cable PSG mods over here at the Fender Steel Forum:

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Fender_Steel_Forum/index.php

Enjoy!
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"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert." -- Arthur C. Clarke

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Bob, of course you can use pull rods -- look at the ones I have on the LL knee in the photo. Just use 3/32 rods that can thread into the Fender parts that are found in the changer tuning assembly and have bellcranks that have a swivel that does not include a set screw. Fix the travel of the rod with a Sho-Bud style barrel tuner or an Emmons half tone tuner and a shaft collar.

You can use a cable if you want, but for a straight pull, why use a cable? And, for knee levers on the changer end of the guitar, why put cross shafts in the way of the cable paths? Use Emmons three piece knee levers.

By the way, on my other 10/2 Fender 400 i modified the fingers to better manage and time multiple pulls on fingers. I drilled three holes in the edge of the fingers and attached cables with ocean fishing sized snap swivels. For the cables I used ocean fishing cable which is made to be tied to swivels.

By the way, to anyone wanting to load a 400 with ten pedals you will need to modify the shape of the pedal rack leg clamp to make room for the tenth pedal.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Fender knee levers are so easy most players installing them for the first time (me included) are overly concerned with precise mechanics and other details.

As mentioned, case-clearance is critical; also having the crosshaft at a point as close as possible to the body is very important...too far away and tall players have leverage problems (even close to the body I had to raise all my Fender by and inch).

To answer the case question - inside clearance on the short-scale models, is, I believe, the same as on the long scale units - and those have 5" clearance from the inside bottom to inside lid. Jim Palenscar and I worked out a design for a knee lever for one of my 400's and neither one of us thought about that..an sure enough, it didn't fit! Ended up being fine as I wanted to switch to a lighter case anyway.

But as far as parts go, mine are generally made from 1/4" aluminum for the levers, folding hinges made from aluminum or steel, steel crosshafts, aluminum brackets (simple "L" shapes screwed to the body with a hole for the crosshaft, and machined aluminum for the "bellcrank". I use brass tubing and baling wire for the changer loops, 1/16" wire rope from Home Depot for cable, generic small turnbuckles from a local hardware store (I replace the "O" end with a thumbscrew - I drill a hole in he center for the cable and use various reinforcement methods plus solder) and ONLY silver solder - electrical solder WILL fail - it's FAR too weak.

Unless you have a need for aesthetically-pleasing "guts", there is no need for special bearings (or ANY bearings!) or anything fancy. Anyone equipped to cut out aluminum and cut a 3/8" or 1/4" steel rod for a crosshaft can make the parts in an hour or two and mount them in 30-45 minutes. Easiest steels to work on...sucessfully...ever.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Eric Moon · From: Colorado, USA

Hi All!

I am resurrecting this thread, because I have just acquired a 4-pedal fender 400, and am figuring how to set up my copedent on it. I'm "modernizing" my setup (I play a multi-kord now.)

The setup requires:
a double lower on 1 string--Pedals 1 and 3
a double raise on 2 strings--Pedals 2 and 4
a lower on a single string-- Knee 1
a lower on two strings and a raise on 1--Knee 2

So the complications seem to be:
1. The double raises and lowers. Micheal Yahl is all out of barrel tuners, and I know no other source. So I'm figuring on using bicycle brake cable adjusters. Think it will work. Since two of the pulls are only a single string, I can free up 2 pulleys.
2. Mounting knee levers. I could put either KL on the right, if there was a reason to prefer one or the other. Seems like putting the simple pull over by the changer might be pretty easy. The triple pull will require those other 2 pulleys. I assume this will work--has anybody done it? I am hoping the knee lever will give me enough leverage if it's a hard pull. I figure this pull will need to bypass the big pulley, as it's already full, right?
3. Creating all these cables. I have never done structural soldering. So I'm wondering what equipment I will need, and would appreciate any tips on the actual job of soldering. Do you use a torch or a soldering gun? If a gun, what wattage? I don't even know the next question to ask!!

Thanks in advance for any tips or suggestions!

-eric

P.S. Here is the actual copedent. I play in a Joni Mitchell cover band, so there's lots of big suspended sounds here. But also some basic E9 functionality.... If you don't mind big-band type jazz chords, almost every pedal/lever combination gives a pleasant strum across the neck.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I did exactly what you guys are talking about on Marty Broussard's 2000 a year or so ago - used MSA pars, had upside down bellcranks on the reversers etc. It fit in the case fine.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Levers that move left require no pulleys or reversers, they can pull changer fingers directly. Levers that move right will need to use a pulley or reverser.

Soldering can be done with a big gun (250 watts is what I used), or a torch. You'll need to use bearing solder or silver solder (not electronic solder), and the appropriate flux.

Two different raises or lowers on the same string will normally require some sort of adjuster or stop on the cable or the pedal itself. (Though you can get different raises and lowers by using the raise and lowers together, that can sometimes be tricky to tune.)

Pulling 3 strings (without resorting to some kind of shaft and adjuster) can be done with a combination of pulleys, a yoke and a pulley, or a combination of yokes.

Lastly (and because I usually like to offer alternative points of view), you could avoid all of the above challenges, and make things a lot simpler, by just getting an all-pull guitar...instead of having to jury-rig or butcher your old Fender cable model pedal steel.

Eric Moon · From: Colorado, USA

The big reason I want the fender is I play with my fingers, and I like the 3/8" string spacing.... I actually have about .40 with the Kord, but I think I can adjust.

The guitar has been pretty well 'butchered' already, that's why I bought it. 2 badly made screwed-in knee levers, (one could probably be pressed back into service) hastily painted black, and fake woodgrain contact paper on the body.

And I doubt I could get a decent guitar for triple what I paid for this.

That's my thinking....

What is the appropriate flux? Just one that is designed for silver solder?

Stephen Williams · From: from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA

Re cross shafts: One thing i did is to use a piece of 5/16" dia. threaded rod. The bellcrank was a piece of aluminium 1/8" thick x 3/4" wide x 2" long with a hole for the cross-shaft and a couple of small holes for rod/cable pulls.

so the bell cranks are easy and you put a nut either side of bellcrank and tighten hard. You can easily torque it down t 2x force of pull. i've had no probs with this and bell cranks are then able to positioned and then tightened. No machining involved

Stephen Williams · From: from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA

Eric Moon, You can do it properly with solder etc but I tried a really simple way of connecting cables.

bought some 55lb rated steel wire at hardware store and where cable meets changer finger i made a narrow loop with about an inch say, of wire snugging up to the trailing end. I put a piece of 1/8" diameter heat shrink tubing on and burnt it with a match. I tested this and it's easily strong enough. So you can connect anything like this.

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