Zinging on top F#

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Hi,
Could anyone explain why I get a slight zinging sound on my Ist string.It does not do it when the string is played open and is probably worse around middle positions,so the roller is ok ,and was turned and oiled too.
I even went up to a 13 from 12 gauge to try to cure the problem ,which is a little better.
I have inspected the finger with a magnifying glass and is ok......the guitar is really very new and has not been damaged.Is this a peculiararity to the gauge / tension / string length and finger radius.I am at a loss now.Fortunately the sound is not overly amplified electrically.
The zing is not affected by pickup height either.
The fingers are anodised.
Regards Dave

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Should have said ,I am using a BJS bar ,and using another bar does not make the zing any worse or better.

John Roche · From: England

Dave, try with the tip of your bar pressing down on the string just before the roller, about an inch should be fine, the same at the tuner end .this will make sure that the string has a slight curve and makes the string lay flat and should stop the noise. I do this whenever I change my strings.. John

David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

The problem may not lie with the guitar. You might check your method of gripping the bar, you may be exerting more pressure on the rear of the bar than the tip. Try moving the bar forward a bit when playing the top strings for slightly more coverage ..The reason that the problem may seem more pronounced near the center portion of the fretboard could be due to achieving a harmonic effect when playing at frets 5,7, and 12.

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Hi John,
Thanks for the reply.How hard do you press? I am a bit scared of grooving / denting the changer if I press too hard and that would be catastrophic.
Hi David,
Thanks for the reply,
I have excluded technique by pressing on the string itself preferentially.
If I put the bar sideways against the string i.e. Bar vertical and against the string side it seems to go away !!

John Roche · From: England

Dave, just press down with your finger so that you just bend the string a little.

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

This was happening frequently to my 4th string "E" and I thought I'd have a closer look before the string popped. When I removed the 4th string It appears it had a pronounced bend right at the apex on the changer finger. I use my 3rd pedal quite a bit and I believe that over time, a bend is created at the bridge point of the 4th string when it's in the full raised F# position.....point "A". When the string is returned to the "E" position, there remains a slight lifting in the string right at the bridge point and like yours, my zing was actually worse at the mid-point "F" position.

It's possible that the various brands of strings have different tempers at the ball end.

_________________
Jerry Jones

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

I had a zinging problem with my Williams guitar. I discovered the problem and would never have thought of this.... When the string is manufactured, it is wrapped around a ball end, given several twists and then cut off. There is a small burr left where the wire was cut. Make sure this burr is up on the finger and not down when the string is tightened. It will dig into the finger and cause some zinging and can cause marring of the finger. Hope this helps someone.

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Thankyou for all these replies.
They all point to differing culprits.However I think the problem is elsewhere .It does it with a new string may I add ,and ,to reiterate not open plucked.
String tempering and brands might hold a clue .I use SIT strings and have broken 4 11 gauge strings consecutively just putting them on ........and this was beyond the tuning peg between the peg and roller ,so QC could be an issue ,altho I have tried a 13 Ernie Ball and as stated reduced the zing.
Here in UK we have a limited selection of brands and would like to try say Jagwires and compare.
It really is a mystery .If it goes away I will let you all know.
Best regards Dave

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

In addition to the replies already given, to clarify a point in regards to the changer finger and string relationship, there is an angle that results from the string leaving the changer finger that I call the "break off" angle and that angle must be great enough to keep the string contact at that point fairly abrupt. When, for whatever reason, there is too much contact for a prolonged length there is a sitar-like effect that occurs due to too much string/finger contact in that particular area. That would be exacerbated with bar pressure as the bar would increase that area of string finger contact and the "zing" or sitar-like sound would be more pronounced. This generally results from wear on the top of the finger making it a bit flatter in that area of the finger and the radius must be re-established to get rid of the unwanted sound. I use 400 wet/dry sandpaper and, after sealing off the surrounding area that I'm working on w damp cotton, lap the finger much like shining a shoe using no direct pressure on the top of the finger in order to keep from making it worse until the usual string groove is no longer visible and then using a small buffing wheel on a dremel, finish the job. I always use a touch of fine machine oil on top of the fingers as well as on the rollers when changing strings in an effort to keep the wear to a minimum. There are those that contend that the oil deadens the sound but my ears must not be that sensitive as I can't hear it.

Tommy Detamore · From: Floresville, Texas

This condition has plagued me off and on for years with some guitars. Typically it is with the 4th string on E9. When I hear that zing it just stops me dead in my tracks. It becomes all I can hear !

I am happy to see Jerry's response on this subject. There is an old thread that he contributed the same info to that seemed to fall on deaf ears at the time. But it made a lot of sense to me when I first saw it, and it certainly explains why the problem oft times disappears when a new string is put on, only to rear it's ugly head after playing for a while. I use my third pedal (E to F# raise) a lot, so maybe I am more susceptible to this issue than others.

Jim P's technique for removing a flat spot is very similar to mine. The only thing I would add is that I use a pair of alligator clips to hold the sanding paper. This allows me to hug the radius of the finger as tight as possible while "shining the shoe".
_________________
Tommy Detamore
Quilter Labs, Goodrich Sound, Source Audio, Neunaber Audio, and Stringjoy Authorized Dealer

www.cherryridgestudio.com
www.steelguitartracksonline.com

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Here is an old discussion about the 4th string zinging.

Click Here

Tommy Detamore · From: Floresville, Texas

Tony Smart · From: Harlow. Essex. England

I'm not saying this is particularly associated with the problem here, but noises do not always come from where you might think.
Some while ago I had a pinging coming from the top G# on E9 when I pressed pedal 2 - drove me nuts. It appeared to be coming from the keyhead but I finally traced it to the universal joint on the pedal connector.

Not wishing take this off topic, but just a warning for these sort of problems. - The same can be said of noises in your car.

Stephen Cowell · From: Round Rock, Texas, USA

Dave, have you tried angling the bar so that it bears on the 1st string alone? I'm thinking if the zinging goes away then perhaps that string is low compared to the others. Mute behind the bar, of course.
_________________
Too much junk to list... always getting more.

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Hi Steve,
Yes have pressed harder at an angle ,no change.I am beginning to think the culprit being the string and the position of the wrap and also maybe the wrap length too.
The guitar is a Mullen RP only 1 year old and the fingers are anodised AL.
There is no grooving on the finger even with a 10 X magnifier.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I've encountered this problem in the past with several guitars. I did the same thing with each one and it worked. I replaced both the roller nut and changer finger on each one. Regular oiling on each part seems to reduce the problem also. I oil all moving parts on my guitars at each string change. I use Singer Sewing Machine oil. Wal-Mart sells it in the area where fabrics are located. I bought a little plastic bottle with a needle from Mullen to use to lube guitar. I got the Sewing Oil idea from Terry Bethel five/six years ago. Usually once a year, I turn the guitar upside down on a thick towel on the floor and oil the changer fingers and let it set overnight. Any excess oil will run down when the guitar is back up. Then at each string change, I put a small amount from the top side of each finger. The F# 1st string is an easy finger to replace. Just disconnect any pull rods going to it and tap the piece holding the fingers back until the finger is removed. Install new finger. Tap back in place. Keep oil on parts when removing/installing. Replace rollernut. Make sure all rollernuts are oiled and moving freely and this will eliminate string return problems usually. Good luck.

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Hi Billy,
Sounds logical what you say to do.However the Mullen is a year old this month ! And has had light use in its year of existence ,there are no grooves as far as a magnifying lens can ascertain.
Regards Dave

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Warranty?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

With international shipping? I think I'd look up the British Steelies Society and get it looked at locally.
I REALLY doubt it's the guitar.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Dave Hepworth · From: West Yorkshire, UK

Yes I tend to agree with you Lane .I think it is a string problem.I will try other strings and pay careful attention to the wrap position in the string anchor slot.
Regards Dave.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Try getting a friend to put a thumb on the lock twist or on the roller nut.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

Two suggestions:

First, get rid of those SIT strings. I used them for a year because I could get them locally for $6.75 per set. I got some of Sid Hudson's Live Steel strings at twice the price, but more than worth it. I would think that Sid will ship internationally, it only makes good business sense to do so.

Second, a shameless commercial. Check out my listing for SLICKUM-UP on the for sale steel guitar and accessories section. Also, SLICK-UM UP works great to apply to the fingers underneath. It may or may not help the the zinging problem, but it has other benefits that is money well spent.

John Roche · From: England

If you stretch your strings by pulling them up when you change them you will stop the strings from laying flat against the changer and this is the reason why you get buzz, therefore you have to do what I suggested above by me you won't put a groove in the changer as you don't have to put too much pressure on the string. This has worked for me on every steel I have owned that has this problem...

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