| Author |
Topic: string locks in key head |
Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 8:48 am |
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Chas smith posted a pic of one of one of his Sho Buds with a string lock in the key head area to fix a return problem. Looks like something that would work well specifically for strings 5+6. Anyone know of a source for "string locks"? Haven't heard back from Chas yet about it so I thought I'd put the quest out here..thanks!  |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:02 am
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chas came up with the idea and made his own.
i look at it as a tinkerer's endeavor, not a practical necessity.
some people obsess, others just play. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 9:53 am
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| Any obsessive fellow tinkerers out there who've got this area covered already? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:03 am
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Recent thread on this subject.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=290514
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:39 am
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Are you all talking about locking tuners or actually locking the string where it goes over nut? I can see where a lock on the nut would be beneficial. You would actually have a keyless guitar type scenario. It would shorten up pedal travel, do away with overtones at keyhead (which I can't hear) and also do away with the mysterious hysteresis, which I can't hear either. I can see how it would thin out tone because some of the sound comes from that 3 or 4 inches of string over the nut to tuners. Be a little trouble, probably more than it's worth to put lockers on.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 10:52 am
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Are you all talking about locking tuners or actually locking the string where it goes over nut? I can see where a lock on the nut would be beneficial. You would actually have a keyless guitar type scenario. It would shorten up pedal travel, do away with overtones at keyhead (which I can't hear) and also do away with the mysterious hysteresis, which I can't hear either. I can see how it would thin out tone because some of the sound comes from that 3 or 4 inches of string over the nut to tuners. Be a little trouble, probably more than it's worth to put lockers on. |
In this case, I'm inquiring about a string lock that locks the string about midway between the roller and tuner. Chas Smith posted a pic of one on one of his Sho Buds which he may have fashioned himself. It looks like a simple and practical thing to install and would seem to remedy any hysteresis problems one may have especially on strings 5+6. It's easy to see how that lock would eliminate much of the travel over the roller nut and the 'hysteresis' thing along with it hopefully. Apparently it worked for Chas. In my case I have both raises and lowers on those two strings and consequently there is definitely a return problem on either the lower or the raise depending on which is tuned first. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 5 Oct 2015 11:38 am
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| Steven Welborn wrote: |
| [...]It's easy to see how that lock would eliminate much of the travel over the roller nut and the 'hysteresis' thing along with it hopefully. |
This keyless PSG exhibits hysteresis - hang on the solid nut - even with the short length of string behind the nut...
... so without perfectly rolling nut-rollers a string-lock will have to be even closer to the nut to eliminate hysteresis at that end.
Will mention that I was told by the man behind that keyless PSG pictured above, that "you can not hear hysteresis on that steel". Well, I do hear it - to the point that I find it nearly unplayable. Others may have less of a problem with a few cents hang. |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 6:06 am
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| Just for my own clarification, what do you mean when you are talking about hysteresis? |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 6:32 am
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| ajm wrote: |
| Just for my own clarification, what do you mean when you are talking about hysteresis? |
Hysteresis on a PSG is "hang" caused (mainly) by mechanical friction, that prevents string tension from landing on or returning to exact value. "Exact value" here being "predetermined frequency" at, and after release of, a raise or lower. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 9:40 am
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My Williams keyless has effectively zero hysteresis (it has a roller nut). My identical Williams keyed had enough that I found myself hitting a raise most times to bring the string back immediately after hitting a lower...it wasn't a lot - barely audible ever - but the keyless simply has none.
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 11:01 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| ajm wrote: |
| Just for my own clarification, what do you mean when you are talking about hysteresis? |
Hysteresis on a PSG is "hang" caused (mainly) by mechanical friction, that prevents string tension from landing on or returning to exact value. "Exact value" here being "predetermined frequency" at, and after release of, a raise or lower. |
"Hysteresis" has become a giant psg misnomer, just like "chromatic strings." "Hang" and mechanical friction are just that, hang and mechanical friction. This is not hysteresis. Like virtually all materials, strings do exhibit hysteresis every time they are stretched or released. This a physical property of the strings themselves, the materials from which they are made. Whether and how precisely an object (a string in this case) returns to a prior state (correct pitch) after a change in the force applied (a lower). There is nothing that can be done about this property of a string's material composition, but the fact that as above, some report that their guitar exhibits "zero hysteresis" might be good evidence that the actual phenomenon of hysteresis is mostly negligible in psgs.
The perceived result of lowering, or reducing tension on a string on a psg thereby allowing that string to slip over or hang up on the nut or changer, become subject to friction in the nut roller or uneven tension within the keyhead, thereby returning sharp or otherwise failing to return to the correct pitch is certainly a problem on a lot of pedal steel guitars. It's just not hysteresis. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 11:53 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| The perceived result of lowering, or reducing tension on a string on a psg thereby allowing that string to slip over or hang up on the nut or changer, become subject to friction in the nut roller or uneven tension within the keyhead, thereby returning sharp or otherwise failing to return to the correct pitch is certainly a problem on a lot of pedal steel guitars. It's just not hysteresis. |
Strictly technical you're right - "hang" isn't "hysteresis". The term "hysteresis" is however used to describe many phenomenons that - strictly speaking - isn't hysteresis, simply because it fits as a pretty accurate description...
| Quote: |
| Many artificial systems are designed to have hysteresis: for example, in thermostats and Schmitt triggers, the principle of hysteresis is applied to avoid unwanted frequent switching. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis
Schmitt triggers (which functionality I have designed into hundreds of electronic circuits) do in general not have a "time-based dependency between inputs and outputs" either - it's usually level-based (much like the mechanical "hang" on a PSG), but the term "hysteresis" is used for them because it does in all other ways fit the description.
I have to conclude that the term "hysteresis" does fit well for "hang caused by friction" on PSGs, despite the fact that it is neither "time based" nor "intentionally designed in", and, FWIW, I'm not the one who "invented" it for use here. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 6 Oct 2015 9:30 pm
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I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you specifically Georg, I quoted your post just to highlight the point I was making, but I meant no disrespect to you. The term has been misapplied for some time now by a lot of folks, and has become accepted to mean what we've been discussing. This is the nature of language.
The larger point is that while we all generally understand what the term is referring to in this context, it's a rather oblique way to discuss a variety of rather straightforward mechanical issues, each with slightly different symptoms and solutions, none being what the word actually, properly describes. If everyone who saw the term but didn't know what it meant ran off to find it on Wikipedia they'd return more confused, not less.
I don't have a single, eloquent word to offer as a replacement (and it's a pretty safe bet that no one else even cares) so I'll just have to ignore it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 1:08 am
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you specifically Georg, I quoted your post just to highlight the point I was making, but I meant no disrespect to you. |
All good, and you made a good point
| Ian Worley wrote: |
| I don't have a single, eloquent word to offer as a replacement (and it's a pretty safe bet that no one else even cares) so I'll just have to ignore it. |
What's important here is that PSG builders don't ignore these negative, and in many cases quite disturbing, phenomenons, as, apart maybe from the hysteresis in strings as they settle after a change in tension, there's not a single good reason to leave obvious sources for "hysteresis (= hang caused by friction)" anywhere in these instruments. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 2:06 am
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I gave up the hysteresis fight. It ain't hysteresis, it just acts like it. I'll save my pointless pedantry for calling the note created by the E raises "E#."
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 2:38 am
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My nutless tuner (see left) doesn't have hysteresis or anything that isn't hysteresis. So the E#s return just fine.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 4:29 am
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The word, with its improbable but true etymology, would seem to describe any imbalance.
(I always wondered what it had to do with hysteresis motors on turntables, and now I know: it's by design.)
With respect to steel guitar, it still leaves us to deal with the imbalance. The word does seem sufficient to the task.
It beats 'nervous.' Maybe it should be 'hung up.' 'My guitar has a hang-up.'
Back to the actual topic....  |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 7:51 am
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This was one of the double string locks Chas cut off from a 6 string guitar string lock system with custom made mount to follow angle of strings for strings 5+6. The Floyd Rose system is the only one I've seen so far but that one does not have lever clamps, which would seem to be more quick and practical in this case so one could clamp down after the initial tuning of those strings. Don't know who originally made these which were purchased a few decades ago at a music store no longer in business.
I'm currently installing return compensators in the under carriage with fixed rods in the lower scissors but I have no more available holes for the 6th string lower which is why I want to find one of these gizmos. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 8:47 am
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| why doesn't the c6 neck have them? |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 9:04 am
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| found em. Kahler 5514 string lock pro. Not cheap at $60 considering I'd cut 2/3 away. |
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Steven Welborn
From:
Ojai,CA USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 9:06 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| why doesn't the c6 neck have them? |
you'd have to ask Chas. Close enuf for jazz maybe? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 9:22 am a perspective from einstone
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| ha! exactly my point. close enough. but you need precise perfection. will it make your playing more true and enjoyable than, say, buddy emmons' sloppy jazzy c6 playing? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 9:24 am
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I find the C neck much more forgiving with being a little out of tune than the E neck.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 1:09 pm
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| i tune to my tinnitus now. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 7 Oct 2015 2:09 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| i tune to my tinnitus now. |
What pitch? Mine's about a D. |
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