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Topic: Keyless;Pro's & Con's??? |
John Sluszny
From:
Brussels, Belgium
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 10:04 am |
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I already know of many good things about them as:Quick & easy string change,less settle in time,less (or no) hysteresis,more even pedal & lever action,lighter weight,more precise fine tuning,no keyhead overtones,less cabinet drop & raise (shorter body).But besides the fact that I think they look like "something's missin'" I was wondering which were the Con's (if any).
And how come most of the "greats" don't play them?Thanks.[This message was edited by John Sluszny on 20 August 2004 at 11:26 AM.] |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 10:29 am
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Well John, I have owned both a Lamar D10 and a Sierra 14SCM gearless guitar. The only real noticeable advantage to me was the lighter weight, especially with the Sierra, and the compact size. As far as string changes, I never found much of an advantage there.....by the time you dig out all the wrenches and rassle with pretensioning the 3rd string...
Some folks think they look wierd, but I rather like the looks of the keyless guitars....Some guys might tell a difference in the sound and playability, but I know I couldn't pass a blindfold test. No other cons for me.
As far as "greats" go, one of, if not the greatest, used to play a gearless Sierra. His name escapes me, but his initials are BE. Joe Wright also plays keyless I believe. I think Tom Brumley plays a keyless Anapeg and Bill Stafford plays a keyless Excel I believe.
[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 20 August 2004 at 11:33 AM.] |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 10:44 am
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I think the only big name I know that plays keyless is Joe Wright.
From what I've read on this forum over the years, it seems most players like to stick with what they have played most of their lives, and in the case of most pro's who came up in the 50's/60's/'70's country fame era, it was a keyed D10 PSG.
Of course the S12U nor keyless had really been around at that time in any major force (Fender 210?).
I have both keyless and non-keyed steels and think they're both great!
Some of my own observations having played both keyed and keyless on gigs every week for a few decades and a dozen or so studio session a year... I like the keyless for fine micro tuning.
The body of a keyless steel is shorter which means less cabinet drop and since there is no string behind the nut, less tuning hysterisis than keyed guitars (and the quick changing of strings is nice too).
I don't notice a whole lot of difference in pedal travel or feel, nor tone or sustain anywhere up or down the neck. IMHO, I've found those things are more brand dependant than key/keyless dependant.
I've spent many an afternoon at the Sierra factory doing side by side comparisions of steels that were identicle in every way except for being keyed or keyless models.
And there just wasn't enough of a difference in feel or tone or playability to sway me either way.
I chose to buy a keyless Sierra myself because I feel the micro tuners (and micro tuning) is a better feature than keys.
I also think the keyless model looks cooler than an identicle keyed model.
I predict that some folks will post that they get no sustain above the 12th fret, but as one whose spent a whole lot of time playing both keyless and keyed guitars, I simply have no problem with sustain above the 12th fret on any keyless steel I have played including Sierra, GFI and Williams.
I'd say if you are having problem with sustain above the 12th fret on any steel, you have a technique issue, not an equipment issue (when I read posts where people say this, the first thing I think is, I bet the problem is not with the guitar!  ).
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 11:29 am
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| I have a Sierra and an Excel - both keyless U-12s and I like them a lot. The main advantage is that it allows for a longer scale length than is possible with keys.The longer the scale,the better and more complex the tone and the easier it is to get harmonics. My 25.5" Excel has an exceptionally focused tone. String changing is a little easier on my keyless Sierra(less than 2 minutes for a 3rd string change)but since string breakage is totally non-existant on my Excel,that's a non-issue. And there's something very pleasing and balanced about the look of a keyless guitar.When I see a keyless I don't think it looks like something's missing - but when I see a keyed guitar (w/the possible exception of a Fender Stringmaster)it looks out of balance and like there's something unnecessary down at one end of the guitar. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 5:34 pm
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| I had a Emmons PP D10 for about 10 years, then a Kline U-12 keyless for about 10 years, now an Emmons PP SD12 for about 6 months. I much prefer the keyless for changing strngs and for precise tuning. Being able to tune down to a note as well as up is great. The Kline had great sustain, but down past the 12th fret, the Emmons wins out. I don't think this is as much of a keyless vs. keyed issue as it is a brand of guitar issue, or PP vs. all pull. It is what you get used to. I would not stay away from a guitar because it was keyless or keyed. They both work, but keyless is just better mechanically. If there is any difference in the sound, it would be so subtle that most of our ears couldn't hear it anyway. I like the looks of a keyless better. All those tuning pegs just seem like wasted space to me. |
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Richard E. Lee
From:
Macedon, NY, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2004 6:32 pm
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| John, here's my 2cents for what its worth. First of all,, I am a novice player. I had a beautiful D10 Sierra Keyless. I do think there is something to be said for warm tone of the 25in scale. However, my problem was in the design..on a keyless the string gets wrapped under the allen screw..and tightened down..and presses the string into the softer Aluminum material. It wasn't long and a groove in the "fingers" was starting to appear. This was causing a slippage of the string..etc..so the fix was to replace the Fingers with new ones..Now, without the parts available from Sierra,,I sold the Sierra, and now have a Zum..yea, the string changing may be a bit slower...when you take into consideration I need to let the string "sit" for awhile..and settle in..which was never a problem with the Sierra. So its a trade off. Also, I had tried different PU's on the Sierra..but even with the 25in scale..I never quite found the TONE and SUSTAIN that this Zum has..right off Bruce's shelf. No comparison...no question...in my opinion. [This message was edited by Richard E. Lee on 20 August 2004 at 07:35 PM.] [This message was edited by Richard E. Lee on 20 August 2004 at 07:40 PM.] |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2004 7:06 am
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Wow, b0b, that sure is a pretty Williams geetar there. I tend to agree with you, I have had 3 Kline Keyless guitars, 2 S-12's and one D-10, I think they look real balanced and they play like butter. Everyone seems to have there own idea on these things & I also think that is great. I have loved the looks of the GFI & Emmons guitars and most all the other ones too. do you like that better than the Sierra? [I had a Keyless Sierra once, and it took two men & an old piece of wood to get the 3rd string on tight enough to tune it to a G#, sometime it took a couple of strings!! But that was the only problem with it.
Ernie
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Richard E. Lee
From:
Macedon, NY, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2004 9:05 am
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Ernie,
I wonder if the problem you experienced with that 3rd string..was what I described earlier?. True,, I would pull that small string..around the "cap" screw..and because that was the smallest string..it was the first to give me fits..slipping out from under the screw head..and going flat on me. Sierra, just before closing, sent me new set of "fingers" but, they were still of that soft alumimun..and eventually would endup needing to be re-dressed (filed flat again) under that screw head.
I'm surpried "bob" or others have not made mention of this problem...mabey I was just the only "lucky" one. |
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