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Topic: Amplifier microphones |
Harold Bullard
From:
Harrisonville, MO 64701 USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2015 6:18 pm |
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I know this topic has discussed many times in the past, but all the keyword(s) I put in the search function is not giving me anything I want. So here we go again. Anyone with experience running sound please weigh in.
I've been using a Shure Beta 57 for miking a Nashville 400. But it seems most sound techs are using a Sennheiser 609 or 906. Why? Is the Sennheiser better for PSG? Why? Or is there a microphone better suited for PSG? Why? Of course, I never get to hear what the audience hears and I'm at the mercy of the sound guy, but I'd like to know that I'm giving him the best signal I can. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Aug 2015 6:57 pm
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Having recorded amps with a number of different mics, I'd say the '57 and Sennheisers mentioned are both fine choices. One of the things sound Techs like about the Sennheisers is the side-address arrangement- you can hang one over the amp with a mic cord looped around the handle and forgo a mic stand. Of course, lots of techs do that with a '57 but it does compromise the pickup pattern quite a bit.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Aug 2015 7:01 pm
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| I use a Beta 57, too (on the rare occasions when I'm miked). In a studio, I think you might hear a difference, but I also think you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart in a live situation. Once you add in lousy room acoustics, the ambient noise, and everyone else in the band thrashing out sound, the mike is seldom a weak link, IMHO. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 24 Aug 2015 8:24 pm
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I carry a 609 with me. Just in case.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 5:56 am
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There truly is something special about these Sennheisers, the flat ones; Originally the 409, and now the 609 or 906. The new 906 is nicer than the 609, but both are similar. The thing that's special about these mic's is that they are just wonderful sounding on guitar speakers. They are very clear yet very smooth and don't have that harsh treble often found with a Shure SM57 and other mic's. These Sennheisers are very forgiving with respect to positioning and placement in front of the cone. They make it very easy to mix the guitar or steel and they require virtually zero EQ at the soundboard to make sound correct. I always bring an old 409 with me. I virtually never mic my steel with an SM57 anymore.
If I were shopping today for the ideal live steel guitar amp mic, I'd get a Sennheiser e906 or if my budget was tighter, I'd get a 609.
Brad |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 6:28 am
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I've been using a 609 for around 12 years and it works great. Many places I play that have a soundman use 609's.
Nice feature is you can loop the cable through the amps handle and the Mic lays flat against the grille cloth so you don't have to drag a mic stand around.
_________________
Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Harold Bullard
From:
Harrisonville, MO 64701 USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 7:27 am
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| This is great information guys. I have one question so far, I'd heard many times around the water cooler that it's best to place a mic 3 - 6 inches from the grill. Is this an old wives tale? Is this the "forgiveness" that Brad mentioned? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 4:34 pm
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I use the 609 because of 2 places I played at that the sound man used the 609. I figured they should know what mic's are good.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 10:19 pm
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I think they use 609s because they drape over the amp and save them setting a stand up.
I A/Bed a 609 and an Audix i5 and bought the i5. Both are basically the same price. I have draped the i5 over the amp and it works ( and sounds) fine that way.
If I had phantom power, I'd probably use a Behringer ECM8000 "instrumentation" mic ( which is really just a condenser capsule like what you used to be able to buy at Radio Shack with a case and some support electronics ) . Gotta watch the treble on those, though. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 25 Aug 2015 10:35 pm
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| Harold Bullard wrote: |
| This is great information guys. I have one question so far, I'd heard many times around the water cooler that it's best to place a mic 3 - 6 inches from the grill. Is this an old wives tale? Is this the "forgiveness" that Brad mentioned? |
I don't know what Brad means and have no intention of speaking for him 
The lowest-risk placement is right up on the grill, right in the center of the dust cap, but it depends on the amp, where it is in a room, what's *behind* the amp, yadda. It's fun to play with, but I've played with that all I'm gonna, and
that's where I always start. Second choice is at the edge, third is half between. One of those three always works or I grab another mic.
The "shrill" people speak of with an SM57 is quite intentional - there's a 4kHz hump in its response curve. But the i5 I mentioned and the e609 both also have that 4k hump and if you don't have it, you miss it. Where that's bad is when that does Bad Things to horn honk on PA speakers. Myself, I EQ that out with the amp's tone controls if I can.
Steel speakers tend to drop off 12dB/octave @ 2kHz, so it's less an issue than on Marshalls, Voxen and Fenders.
A 57 will also behave *dramatically* differently into a nicer mic input. Even an inexpensive Symetrix preamp will sound better than many ( but not all ) Mackie or Behringer preamps. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Aug 2015 9:43 am
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| Quote: |
The lowest-risk placement is right up on the grill, right in the center of the dust cap, but it depends on the amp, where it is in a room, what's *behind* the amp, yadda. It's fun to play with, but I've played with that all I'm gonna, and
that's where I always start. Second choice is at the edge, third is half between. One of those three always works or I grab another mic. |
In 44 years, I have NEVER seen a sound man place a mic in the center of the dust cap. They almost always place it about 1/3 or 1/2 way between dust cap and edge of speaker.
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| I think they use 609s because they drape over the amp and save them setting a stand up. |
Both the sound men that used the 609 on my amp, used them on a stand, so I don't think that is the reason, although I think it is a good reason. I hang it over my amp and don't use a stand.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2015 7:06 pm
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
In 44 years, I have NEVER seen a sound man place a mic in the center of the dust cap. They almost always place it about 1/3 or 1/2 way between dust cap and edge of speaker. |
Half between is always #3 to try, at least for me.
Half between will very often cause low mid build up. I'd rather have a bit too much treble at the mic and pad it down with EQ.
YMMV. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 26 Aug 2015 7:55 pm
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Sennheiser 421 is my favorite for the studio and live, though the flat styled 609/906's are sure nice for stage for space issues...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2015 5:43 am
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On stage, I think it makes best sense to be very near the speaker because that keeps other stage sounds from bleeding into the mic and keeps that guitar speaker WAY hotter in the mic compared to anything that may bleed into it. As soon as you back off a few inches, you invite all kinds of bleed.
But in the studio, I agree, backing off the speaker is generally better, gets a better "image" of the whole speaker and not just one little area on the cone.
When I say the little flat Sennheisers are "forgiving", I mean that they sound pretty darn good no matter where you place them on the speaker just as long as you're in the ballpark, somewhere between the edge of the voice coil and the middle of the paper area. With '57's close miked, they can have a much harsher, sharper treble peak that takes a lot more work with positioning to get under control. Sometimes just moving a '57 an inch or less can radically change this response. In that sense, the '57 is less forgiving.
And sure, the flat Sennheisers are really friendly because they can just hang on the amp and don't need a stand, but for me, the real deal has to do with the midrange warmth and the smooth treble, lots of clarity with no harsh ice-pick piercing quality. I find that the 409, 609, 906 will allow the instrument to be mixed quite loud and up front and without much or any irritating sharpness making it very easy for the soundman and very flattering on the instrument itself in the mix. It's that presence without harshness that makes me like these mic's so much. Regardless of the frequency response chart, they are radically different sounding compared to an SM57.
Brad |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Harold Bullard
From:
Harrisonville, MO 64701 USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2015 6:23 am
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| Ditto. That was a very good easy to understand explanation. Thank you. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 27 Aug 2015 8:47 pm
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Brad, have you checked out the Tul microphones?
http://tulmicrophones.com/G12.html
Pretty amazing on guitars...I recently got a pair and love them on guitar amps...have not tried it on the steel yet cause your V8 gives me such a great direct sound I have been to lazy to mic an amp lately. The Tul through a Telefunken V72 and a LA3A is pretty amazing...
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 6:16 am
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I sold my pair of 57's and replaced them with 609's
A pair of 609's weighs less than 1 57 and no need for stands or amp clamps or ZBars
Sound techs love them |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 6:38 am
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| John Macy wrote: |
Brad, have you checked out the Tul microphones?
http://tulmicrophones.com/G12.html
Pretty amazing on guitars...I recently got a pair and love them on guitar amps...have not tried it on the steel yet cause your V8 gives me such a great direct sound I have been to lazy to mic an amp lately. The Tul through a Telefunken V72 and a LA3A is pretty amazing... |
VERY interesting... Price??
Brad |
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Jerry Tillman
From:
Florida
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 6:54 am Mic for amps
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| This is a shameless plug as I am Quilter dealer.The line out on the Quilter amps is the best I have ever heard and all the sound men I have dealt with love it.If you have a Quilter amp try it.It is a great sound and you won,t have any one looking at you when the feedback starts and the finger pointing begins.I have a Steelaire but for small gigs I use my mach 2 8 inch speaker and plug the xlr line out when the volume goes up.Thanks Jerry jerrysguitarsnmor Stuart Florida 772 215 7070 |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 9:28 am
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| Quote: |
| Steel speakers tend to drop off 12dB/octave @ 2kHz, so it's less an issue than on Marshalls, Voxen and Fenders. |
While nearly all of the speakers from Eminence, Jensen, SICA, etc. do have limited high frequency response, this is not true at all of speakers from JBL or Telonics which are very common in steel guitar rigs, with usable response nearly two octaves above the 2kHz figure quoted. Ironically, the OEM speakers commonly found in Vox, Marshall, and Fender amps DO top out around 2kHz, so rather than being more of an problem, the issue at hand is for the most part fact moot with these amps, as there is nothing being delivered at the mic's frequency hot spot.
The Senn 609, Shure SM57 and Audix i5 all have a significant "presence peak" - i.e. a 4-6kHz boost - intentionally designed into them. With the SM57 the lows drop off rapidly below 200Hz as well, producing a thinner version of the the original signal, while the Senn 609's lows roll off more gently, extending below 100Hz, and the Audix has a low end bump between 100 and 200Hz to fill out the bottom. The Senn 906 attempts to take this further with a smoother, more extended low frequency response than the 609. GO online and google the response curves for these mics and you will quickly understand what you are hearing.
As the frequency response of the higher quality instrument speakers DOES NOT drop off at 2kHz, but extends well upwards of 6kHz, the extra highs in those mics can bite your head off unless the sound tech is very savvy, often resulting in a thin, peaky tone from the PA. An attentive sound person may address this with channel EQ, but more commonly they just run with whatever comes to the mixer and there is no fixing it from the stage.
The Senn 409, 421, and 906 have little to none of this mid-high boost, coupled with smooth, extended low frequency response, and when properly used with a decent sound system will sound notably better than the peaky mics. Like Brad, I pack an old Senn 409 when I can, and the difference in sound is huge, presenting the mixer with a much more accurate and musical reproduction of the sound coming out of the amp.
I would never recommend putting a condenser mic on a speaker, if the capsule itself does not overload the internal preamp may, either way distortion and loss of low frequency response is the order of the day. Save the condensers for the hi-hat and overhead and you will do well... |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 6:22 pm
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I used a 57.. beta 57.. and a Senn 906 over the years. I tend to agree with Brad that the reason the Senns are popular is because they don't need a Doctorate in Sound Engineering to make them sound good.
It takes quite a bit of knowhow to dial in a 57. Most don't have it or care. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 28 Aug 2015 9:38 pm
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Brad--about $245...everyone so far loves them...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
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Posted 30 Aug 2015 6:15 am
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Recently purchased the Audix,'Cab Grabber'. In my opinion, definitely a worthwhile investment if you routinely mic your amp as I do. Clamps to the side of most any amp cab and allows you to position your mic exactly where it's needed (and have it remain there!). The biggest plus for me is that it eliminates the need for suspending the mic from a cord, or for having an extra stand taking up precious stage space (or someone to possibly trip over and drive the mic into your speaker).
Last edited by David Nugent on 30 Aug 2015 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 30 Aug 2015 12:43 pm
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Hi John ,
I see that the recommendation for mic placement is in the middle of the cone ....No problems with this ? How does it sound further from the center , say 3" or so ? ....Thanks for your time ....JIm |
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