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Topic: Questions about my old Sho-Bud's pedals and levers |
Kevin Bold
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 10:09 am |
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I recently acquired an old Sho-Bud singleneck and I have some questions about the pedals and the levers.
From my left to my right, the pedals go C, B, A, and the levers go F, D, G, E. Is that okay? I would think the levers would go D, E, F, G. One of the levers doesn't move one of the strings it's supposed to, either.
Any suggestions on how I can fix this? Other than this, I'm enjoying learning how to play this instrument very much.
Thanks,
Kevin |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 10:29 am
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The ABC levers are pretty standard on E9 so it sounds like your guitar is in "Day" setup, who had his ABC pedals reversed compared to the way Buddy Emmons had his.
The names of the knee levers are less standardised so I'm not sure what you mean by DEF&G.
Regarding the levers that raise and lower the E strings by a semitone, on Day setup, these are often both on the left knee with the one that lowers on the left and the one that raises on the right.
This makes sense as you often use the E raises in conjunction with the A pedal (for a major chord, 3 frets up from the open position) and the lowers in conjunction with the B pedal for the V7th chord on the same fret as the open position.
Ergonomically, this makes a lot of sense if you are using the Day setup. I understand that on the Emmons setup, the E raise and lower levers are often on different knees with the raise most often being on LKL.
Jeff Newman refers to the E lower lever as D and the raise lever as F - not sure if you were using that convention or not.
Which lever doesn't work? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Aug 2015 1:37 pm
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To echo and enlarge what Jeff said, there's no real standard for the naming, function, or placement of knees.
I recommend naming them by what they do.
Let's start with saying what you have:
LKL (left knee left): what's it do?
LKR?
RKL?
RKR?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2015 1:38 pm
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What mechanism underneath?
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Kevin Bold
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2015 7:29 pm
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I'll begin by thanking all of you for replying.
As stated earlier, when sitting behind the Sho-Bud, starting on my left, the levers are F, D, G, and E.
According to one of my pedal steel guitar books, the F and the G levers do what they're supposed to: the F raises the 4th and 8th strings half a step from E to F. The G lever raises the F# strings (1st and 7th) to G.
OTOH, the D lever, which is supposed to lower both E strings to D#, only lowers the 4th string.
The E lever lowers the 2nd string (D#) to D, but instead of lowering the 9th string to C#, lowers the eighth to D#. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2015 8:08 pm
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| Kevin Bold wrote: |
OTOH, the D lever, which is supposed to lower both E strings to D#, only lowers the 4th string.
The E lever lowers the 2nd string (D#) to D, but instead of lowering the 9th string to C#, lowers the eighth to D#. |
The current copedent you have is archaic, rooted in the early history of the Sho-Bud company. Look at this chart from the 1960's. It's not hard to change what the pedals and levers do on a Sho-Bud. You should modernize it. 75% of players today arrange their pedals A B C, the "Emmons" order.
LKL, the leftmost lever, raises the E's to F. It is universally called "the F lever". If you stick with the C B A arrangement, You should have these changes on LKR for ergonomic reasons.
LKR, left knee (moving) right, usually lowers both E strings to D#. Some tabs calls this lever "D", others call it "E". When talking, I call it "the E lower lever" which avoids confusion. Some people (myself included) put these changes on the right knee instead of the left.
One of the right knee levers should lower the 2nd string to D and optionally lower the 9th string to C#. If you just connect the 2nd string, that's okay. The 9th string lower isn't used much until you get into some advanced playing. On tab, the 2nd string lower might be called "D" or "E", depending on the author.
The remaining lever is up for grabs. 30 years ago, most players used it to raise both F# strings to G, and that's probably what I'd do if I had an old Sho-Bud. Most modern players use the 4th lever to lower their middle G# to F# instead, and many also raise the top F# to G# and the 2nd string to E. You hear these changes a lot on country radio today, but it's challenging to get them working right on older instruments.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2015 10:11 pm
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b0b's got it right!
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 2:15 am
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I find it important to lower 2 to C# AND D.
If you can send pics of the underside, we can probably help you rearrange things. These old Buds are pretty easy to futz with.
I'd personally lower 6 to F# with the knee that raises 1.
If you're gonna leave it Day, I'd set the levers up like this:
LKL: lower the Es
LKR: raise the Es
RKL: raise 1 to G, lower 6 to F#
RKR: lower 2 to C#, with the 9th string engaging as the 2nd string hits D.
If you want to turn the pedals around, reverse LKL and LKR.
PS: this is assuming you have a Rack and Barrel or later guitar. If you have a Permanent, this is NOT a job for the faint of heart, and I'd just learn on what you have.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Kevin Bold
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 6:21 pm Questions about my old Sho-Bud's pedals and levers
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| Thank you all for your good advice. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Aug 2015 11:48 pm
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Kevin, pictures of yours would help a bunch.
But if your guitar looks like this, you can do it yourself in this a couple hours. 
If it looks like this, it'll be a good afternoon. If it looks like that but with the brass barrels of the picture above, about the same, a good afternoon.
If it looks like this, with the hex shafts, you can do it but may take a full weekend
If it looks like THIS, with the hooks, that's a bigger job, and I've never worked on one.
If it looks like THIS, leave it alone and play it as is, unless you're a machinist. The bellcranks are welded to the shafts and it's a tricky balance to get both raises and lowers working right.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 20 Aug 2015 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 8:20 am
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Lane... The one with the hex shafts you posted, I assume it is a Super-Pro, or one of the Pro series with that undercarriage. When I had my Super-Pro (used), I had to switch it to my Day setup. It only took a short afternoon to change all 3 pedals and 5 levers (but the half-stop mechanism was not in the guitar, so I didn't have to mess with that). But that is because I had a little knowledge about the guitar, and some mechanical abilities.
Jeff said:
| Quote: |
| Ergonomically, this makes a lot of sense if you are using the Day setup. I understand that on the Emmons setup, the E raise and lower levers are often on different knees with the raise most often being on LKL. |
I'm curious. What is it about the Emmons setup that would make any difference with the E raises and lowers on different knees? I'm not trying to attack your post. I really want to know. I see many Emmons setups like that. I really don't understand what the difference is.
And I know some Emmons players that have both E raises and lowers on the same knee. some on the left, some on the right. And I know there are some Day players that probably have them split between both knees. Different licks not available on the Day setup? Some chords that aren't available on the Day setup?
I'm just really interested.
Really...Anyone can answer that.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 8:43 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
Jeff said:
| Quote: |
| Ergonomically, this makes a lot of sense if you are using the Day setup. I understand that on the Emmons setup, the E raise and lower levers are often on different knees with the raise most often being on LKL. |
I'm curious. What is it about the Emmons setup that would make any difference with the E raises and lowers on different knees? I'm not trying to attack your post. I really want to know. I see many Emmons setups like that. I really don't understand what the difference is.
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To my mind, it would make sense on pretty much any setup to have the E raise and lower on the same knee if for no other reason than that those are 2 changes you would definitely not need to use at the same time.
But I have noticed that a lot of Emmons players have them on different knees and just made that observation really. Like you, I'd be interested to know the reason. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 8:56 am
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Hopefully, someone will chime in on that.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 9:03 am
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Paul, and many share that bit of "vocabulary", likelike idea of the seamless move from D# to F, which you can only get by separating them.
I like using the 2nd string lower with the E lowers, AND I like using 6th string lower with the E lowers, AND I like using the 2nd string lower with the E raises, AND the resolve of releasing the B lower at the same time as engaging the E lowers.
The last, I can do by lowering the raised vertical while engaging LKR.
The first two mean that both the 2nd string lower and 6th string lower have to be on the same knee, and the opposite knee from the E lowers. The third means that the E raises have to be on the knee that the 2nd string lower ISN'T.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 9:13 am
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| Quote: |
| Paul, and many share that bit of "vocabulary", likelike idea of the seamless move from D# to F, which you can only get by separating them. |
I can do it quick enough with one knee, that I am the only one that knows about the bump. What the audience hears is different from what we hear. I would never use it in a recording situation. But I'll admit, I never use that "lick". I can get in many other places. But then, players like Paul have them split for very good reasons for their style of playing. And, I will never question someone like Paul.
And, I am not sure about Mike Johnson, but Tommy White has them both on 1 knee. Hard to argue that point him. I brought up Mike Johnson because in my opinion, they are the 3 best and busiest LIVING players, not on the road full time. I do realize that LLoyd Green is still alive, but I don't see much from him.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 9:27 am
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I've always used opposite legs. It's much faster if need be. And there's no slight pause on the E as your leg travels between the two levers.
_________________
Dr. Z Surgical Steel amp, amazing!
"74 Bud S-10 3&6
'73 Bud S-10 3&5(under construction)
'63 Fingertip S-10, at James awaiting 6 knees
'57 Strat, LP Blue
'91 Tele with 60's Maple neck
Dozen more guitars!
Dozens of amps, but SF Quad reverb, Rick Johnson cabs. JBL 15, '64 Vibroverb for at home.
'52 and '56 Pro Amps |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 20 Aug 2015 9:48 am
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| Quote: |
| To my mind, it would make sense on pretty much any setup to have the E raise and lower on the same knee if for no other reason than that those are 2 changes you would definitely not need to use at the same time. |
For some, yes. For others, no. Everything that really ever needed to be said about that is here - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769-2.html
There are a bunch of other threads discussing this since then. Whenever I get into one of them, I always reference back to that one seminal discussion. Like here - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=150471&start=25
I'm personally in the camp of splitting the E-raise/E-lower knees for precisely the reasons Paul stated there. I'm very aware of mathematical combinations, but it's the utility of the changes that matters to me, not the raw number of combinations. I'm willing to lose two combinations that I hardly ever use to get one that I use lots.
I also agree with others stating that it is important to know which Sho Bud changer the OP is talking about to know how to approach this. |
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