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Topic: tune E to 442? |
Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 6:11 am |
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I have always tuned my E's to 440 then tuned my other strings by chiming and beat cancelling etc.,
I was on the tuning chart part of the Jeffran site where the late Mr newman tells us to tune E (E9 Neck) to 442 and goes on to list all other strings with their various readings.
I am a bit confused,Our bass player and 6string players all tune straight up(440)
Will I be out of tune with them?Do I have to rewrite the chart to show E at 440 and all the other strings tuned down by 2 cents.
By the way I have cloth ears and the sound of dropping 2cents is the same as 5dollars to me but I am thinking of the poor suffering public.
Thanks for your help and Best regards
Billy |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 6:59 am
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Try pushing down your A and B pedals and then tuning your E string to 440 as an experiment and see if it works for you. On my steels it brings my open tuning up to 442 or close. I might add that if you can't hear the difference then it doesn't matter. If you don't train your ears to hear very subtle pitches than no tuning methods are going to help.
Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 17 July 2004 at 08:08 AM.] |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 8:03 am
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Hi Bob,
There is absoutely no cabinet drop in the ZB and it is very small in the Emmons.
Billy |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 9:09 am
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Billy, If you tune your steel to Jeff's chart; OR you tune to any other reference and you tune it to JI (tuning the beats out), You will not be in tune with all the notes on any other instrument I know of, except another steel guitar tuned exactly like yours.
Cabinet drop (as Bob was talking about with the A and B pedals down) is not the only reason I believe, Jeff shifted to 442 instead of 440. In fact it has more to do with the 3rd's clashing (with other instruments) than cabinet drop, IMO.
The following is why I believe this to be true. NO note in any chord (save the suspended) is more important in sound perception than the 3rd of that chord. In fact chords MUST have the third in there. Suspendeds excepted.
An example is a 13th chord. ONLY the 3rd, the 7th and the 13th tones MUST be in that chord in order for it to be a 13th. In the case of a 7th chord, one can play just the 3rd and the 7th tones (diad chord) and have all the notes necessary for the ear to hear that 7th chord. And so on.
Now when we tune our steels as 95% of all steel players do; IE, all notes save octaves, are shifted plus or minus from the standard 440, we have many notes out of tune with instruments that are fixed tuned such as the piano and the regular guitar plus a fretted bass.
BUT, the note that is almost always shifted the farthest is our 3rds. Now coupling this with the fact that the 3rd is THE most important note in a given chord, It will be the note that will sound OUT of tune the most with most of the other instruments. And this is never more true than with the piano (tuned to standard).
So, by sharpening everything (400 to 442 or 442.5 as My chart from Jeff shows), it brings that third closer to everybody else's third. Let me expound a bit further.
Even with a PSG with NO cabinet drop or if the A and B pedals are not engaged, there are plenty of "3rds" all over the neck that are way flat from the rest of the band, the way most of us tune our PSG's.
So even here, it tends to sound better (to Jeff and a whole slew of us) if we shift the "standard" sharp by several Hertz. IE, 442. I believe what the ears are doing when we play in a band is averaging out everthing including the biggest offenders (3rds) and melding them closer together. Thus it tends to sound more "in" tune with the band.
My opinions of course,
carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 17 July 2004 at 10:11 AM.] |
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Charles Turpin
From:
Mexico, Missouri, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 9:15 am
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I remember when i got a copy of Jeff Newmans tuning with everything raised 2 cents on the meter.I was talking to Bruce Zumsteg about doing that one time. ( The builder of Zum steels) He told me it was a good idea a little higher than the 440 pitch. But never to tune the pedals and all to 440 i messed up a return spring when i first got a guitar doing that. Bruce prefers that you tune about a cent higher than the 440 pitch. But Jeff Newman put out an old tuning chart years ago where It wasnt tuned 2 cents higher i wonder if anyone has a copy of that chart could they send it to me
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 9:50 am
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The basic idea is that if you tune your roots and fifths sharp of the center line, and tune your thirds and sixths flat of the center line by the same amount, open chords will sound more in tune with the other instruments. If you don't do this, you have to aim a wee bit sharp of the frets all the time, and your open strings never sound quite in tune with the band.
On some songs, I play a lot of 12th and 7th fret harmonics without the bar. My parts would sound really bad if I didn't balance my tuning on both sides of the so-called "A-440" center line.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 10:01 am
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| (Even with this "balanced" tuning, I found it impossible to play a C# chord as 12th fret harmonics with the band. The F (E#) note is still too flat to be usable without the bar. The G# and C# notes sound fine against an E or A chord, but when the band goes to a C# chord they sound flat.) |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 10:08 am
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Billy, I printed Jeff's tuning chart out and that's the way I tune my guitar. I think Jeff knew exactly how a steel should be tuned, that's why I go by his chart. 
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84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 10:39 am
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My two cents...
Pedals A and B down.
Tune to 440.
Release pedals.
Re-tune all strings (except 4 and  so that they are in tune with 4 and 8.
Now the steel is in tune when playing A,(with pedals A and B pressed), at the open position, and technically slightly sharp of E (but still in tune with itself) when the pedals are released.
It works for me, your mileage may vary.
R B. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 3:38 pm
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I tune to what the tuner says is in tune.
Why?
Guess it's just easier.
EJL |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 4:58 pm
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Listen to Paul Franklin, then listen to Buddy Emmons. One tunes by harmonics, JI; the other tunes just about 'straight up' ET. Which one plays out of tune?
Neither one, as far as my ear can detect. For that matter, listen to Buddy's early stuff, then his later recordings. He's tuned both ways and is always impeccably in tune.
Once the bar hits the strings, it DOESN'T MATTER. How one goes about tuning is incidental. PLAYING IN TUNE is critical.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 5:03 pm
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Eric, If the truth be known (it never will be by man) we probably should all tune by the meter. But it aint gonna happen.
"I don't care what mama don'allow (or truth says) I'm gonna play mah GIT' tar any how"
And so it goes,
carl |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 17 Jul 2004 5:53 pm
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Well. I'm going to anyhow..
And if anybody asks me why, I just smile and tell them that I never gave it much thought.
EJL |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 2:53 am
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Many thanks again to all for the replys.
Thank you Carl for your excellent explanation which has really helped with my understanding or this subject.
Best regards
Billy |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 3:39 am
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| Thanks Carl for your in depth explanation as usual. I was a student of Jeff's and tune to his chart. He told me that by tuning with his chart, you would sound more in tune with the band. I figured Jeff knew a whole lot more about tuning a steel than I did, so I didn't question him and I still don't. But as Larry so well pointed out, things change once the bar hits the strings. I think that is the reason tuning a few cents one way or the other is not all that critical. Your ear should tell you if the bar is in the right place to sound in tune with the band or not. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 12:05 pm
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| In another thread on this, Paul Franklin explained that he tunes a little sharp to match the "stretch" tuning of keyboards. Each octave above middle A is tuned slightly sharper than the previous octave on keyboards. Paul reasons that pedal steel mostly plays in the octave above middle A, so we should tune slightly above 440. |
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David Friedlander
From:
New York, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 3:14 pm
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I've heard all about cabinet drop - but it does not stand to reason that everyone should tune +.02 becasue of a situation which clearly variaes from brand to brand.
Carl's explaination is the first one to really make a whole lotta sense to me.
Carl- Jeff's method also calle for flatting the G#'s a few cents- how does this dovetail with your third elplaination- which was obvioulsy well thought out. |
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Val Gethers
From:
Hesperia, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 4:54 pm
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| And once again when Mr. Dixon speaks I say to myself "ok, now I get it" This forum is just great. The light at the end of this tunnel of learning gets brighter every day. Again, thanks b0b, Carl, and all for the help. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 5:16 pm
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| Quote: |
| "Carl- Jeff's method also calle for flatting the G#'s a few cents- how does this dovetail with your third elplaination- which was obvioulsy well thought out." |
David, you just hit upon why I made one of the opening statements. I will explain.
The G#'s on E9th are "3rds" of the E chord. And Jeff does indeed indicate to tune these quite flat. If you consider how far they are away from 442.5 in my chart from Jeff, they are just about as far OUT of tune with the standard as they can be.
Now this would further be exacerbated IF we tuned the E's to 440. (The G#'s would be even further flat from the rest of the band). So again I believe that the main reason for sharping the "standard" is not so much because of cabinet drop; rather to get those dang thirds closer to all the other instruments' thirds.
Sure, this means our 1sts and 5ths will be sharp of standard. But since the thirds ARE the most important note in a chord, (save suspendeds), it just makes sense to me that our ears are "averaging" (as b0b said above and below) so we perceive more blending it into an "in" tune situation.
IF anyone else can come up with a more plausible explanation, I am all ears. But I gotta tell ya, I have thought about it endlessly for many years. And when Jeff did what he did, and then I (as well as countless others) followed suit, it instantly blew many former theories out of the water.
Thanks for asking dear friend,
carl |
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Bob Snelgrove
From:
san jose, ca
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 5:23 pm
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Why are we the only ones that have to do this? Guitar players and keyboard players tune each note to pitch (440) and sound fine together. BTW, I tune the beats out too, so I'm not disagreeing
bob
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 6:33 pm
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| they tune that way because of the limitations of their instruments, There are only 12 pitches per octave on the keyboard or guitar. There are infinite pitches per octave on pedal steel. We can get more in tune than they can. |
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David Friedlander
From:
New York, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 7:14 pm
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Actually, 6 string guitarists face a similar situation- that is:
the B string is a thrid above the G- the only strings who's interval is a major third.
Without doubt the B string is the most diffucult to tune on a 6 string
Thirds are inherently difficult to tune- maybe because you can't do it to beats??
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 18 Jul 2004 7:49 pm
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Bob,
b0b is correct. Also and most importantly; The steel guitar produces harmonics (overtones) that are uniquely different from any musical instrument I know of.
The following is a fact. You can tune a piano straight up. You can then tune every note on a steel guitar to the exact frequencies of that piano. You can then play a C chord say, or any other chord on the piano and it will sound pretty good.
However if you play that same chord using the indentical spelling on that steel guitar, most steel players will feel it sounds terrible. The same thing happens on a regular guitar and the steel guitar.
By the way it has nothing to do with the sustain of either instrument. The following is why.
What is happening is this. The fundamental notes are NOT the culprit. The unique overtones of the steel guitar are such that they clash immediately in MOST steel players ears with the overtones of the piano (or regular guitar et al).
Most of us steel players live with this dilemma; and it will never be solved; UNLESS someone finds a way for a piano to be able to shift its tuning of any note(s) based on what its player hears at any given instance!
The only other solution is to do what Buddy Emmons, Weldon Myrick and Bill Stafford, etc, etc, do. And that is to tune the steel to straight ET and get used to the beats until, as has happened to countless piano players, our ears have "cultured" to ET.
Seriously! But don't hold your breath!
carl |
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Burton Lee
From:
Denton, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 7:49 am
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I know I've heard it said that Buddy tunes ET, but are we sure that means he zeros the needle on a digital tuner on all his strings and pulls?
Even before stretch tuning is employed, a well tuned piano is not hitting zeros on the tuner; not even in the center octave. That's the sound of a cheap casio keyboard, and it's bad to anyone's ears.
I tune to ET, but that means that I get about 5 or 6 beats per second on my thirds, and a slow beat on my fifths. I try to emulate what the piano tuner here at school taught me to do. This amount of beat your ears do get accustomed to hearing, and it sounds more agreeable as full triads are played. The piano technician does the center two octaves this way with no stretch. Some techs only do one octave true.
I don't believe any instrument can be plugged into a digital tuner (fancy VSIIs aside perhaps), tuned to zeros, and sound in tune with itself or others. You're compromising somewhere to make it happen, and that doesn't make it JI.
My 2 cents.
Burton Lee
Denton, TX
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 19 Jul 2004 8:27 am
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Burton,
You make several good points. However, Buddy does tune ET across the board with the following exception. He does slightly flatten his thirds.
BUT, and this is a very important but, he doesn't do this to get the beats out as a JI player does. Or get closer to JI. Rather, he does it so that nothing, including temperature changes, would cause it to go even a hair over ET.
Along these lines, there are players who DO tune straight up and I mean straight up ET. dead on ET, every string, every pedal and knee lever change. Bill Stafford is one of them; Weldon Myick is another one. Ed Packard I believe is another one. Not sure.
Also, I wish to comment on "stretch tuning" of a piano. This is probably one of the most missunderstood things in the entire sphere of tuning. Let me list the myths.
Stretch tuning is NOT:
1. Tuning a piano to JI
2. Tuning the beats out.
3. Making the piano sound more in tune with the band.
Rather it is due to what piano tuners (and players) learned years and years ago. IE, IF you tune all keys on a piano straight up ET, it will NOT sound straight up ET over all 88 keys!
That is right, it will not sound like it is tuned ET all the way. Sound engineers now know why this happens. A piano has two built in culprits:
1. The length of the strings are not all the same.
2. The diameter of the stings span a humongous difference from the lowest to the highest notes.
Because of this, a strange thing happens when a person hears the sounds of a piano. It is called the "enharmonicity of ringing strings" of different lengths (and diameters).
And that is, a piano tuned straight ET will sound; progressively flatter and flatter than ET each octave above the middle C octave. AND progressively sharper and sharper than ET below the middle C octave.
To make it sound (perceptually in human ears) like a piano IS tuned ET over all octaves, piano tuners learned to "stretch" the lower and upper octaves progressively. IE, sharpen each octave going up in incremental steps; flatten each octave going down in incremental steps.
This then makes the piano sound like it is tuned ET across all 88 notes.
If you would like to see this pictoraly, click on the following link; then click on "apps" in the index; then click on "The Equal Tempered Acale and Some Pecularities of Piano Tuning"; then scroll down 'til you see the picture of a piano keyboard and the stretch curve above it:
http://www.precisionstrobe.com/
Finally, there is NO such thing as being "IN" tune, unless a player or group of player agree to what "in" tune means. In other words, there are no absolutes in tuning a musical instrument.
This is because many players (all musical instruments) truly believe that ET is "in" tune. While there are many who believe that JI is "in" tune. Yet others like "meantoners", etc. believe their method is "in" tune.
In the case of the steel guitar, most believe that JI is "in" tune. After 40 yrs of tuning JI, Buddy Emmons and Weldon Myrick switched to ET (or VERY close to it as mentioned above.
The question is WHY? I believe I know the answer.
Finally, I believe this "stretch" scenario plays a significant role in why Jeff's charts and PSG players all over tune their bottom strings on C6 considerably flatter that ET OR JI. And I do not believe all of it has to do with bar pressure. In a word, it just sounds more "in" tune when they are flatter!
carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 19 July 2004 at 09:43 AM.] |
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