For Ricky Davis: E9 vs. C6 for theory

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Hey Ricky,

Could you expand on your comment in the LDG thread about the E9 neck being much better for theory and making more sense to you?

It seems like C6 can actually be more forgiving in certain ways, as you can strum giant chords on that tuning, while on E9 you gotta skip strings in a lot of cases --for example that giant Dim7 chord with pedals 5 & 6 cannot really be fully replicated on the E9 neck.

It would be interesting to hear more of your thoughts on this topic, as you are one of our Master Players.

Anyone else with ideas about this, please join in as well.

-GV

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

WEll my explaination of the E9 neck being much more visual in Theory for me; is simply because I've been playing it alot longer..ha...and also I use the 13th+9 tuning mostly on all my Hawaiian tuning inversions. So when looking at the strings; I know what number value each one is up and down the neck wheather a pedal or knee is engaged or not; and I can't do that as quickly on the C6th neck(well mainly with all the pedal and knee combos) and that is my best explaination of why; for me.
I don't see the neck as what chords I can strum...I see the neck as all the possible inversions of a chord I can make; and the movement of single notes to pass from chord to chord or phrase or harmony notes, and I just see soooo much easier on the E9 neck. I can sit and show you a thousand of them...but can't do it justice typing it out because it doesn't explain a thing; it only shows and does not teach.
Ricky

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Great stuff, Ricky. Do you see yourself sticking to single neck PSGs for awhile?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I have to echo Ricky's very poignant post to the letter.

Unlike many C6 officianados, I share Ricky's feelings. The standard C6 setup, while allowing a hoard of Jazz and modern power chords has never IMO, lent itself to beautiful melody phrasing like E9th has.

This is why long ago, I simply had to change the basic copedent in such a way that it would fill that gap. The best way I have ever found to describe it is, I must have the C6 neck setup like I perceive Jerry Byrd would have set it up, IF he had ever gone to pedals.

Note: I still must have all the changes the basic copedent has, I just feel and will always feel there are too many holes in it to allow the music to "flow" like I believe the steel guitar was meant to have.

My opinions of course,

carl

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

And I mirror what Carl just said too.
Greg that's a good quesion as all yours are...>well the LDG is the only pedal steel I own so I guess I'm stuck with it..ha.

I don't miss C6th simply because I have it on my Hawaiian steels one way or the other..ha..but C6th pedal steel?? Nope I'd never miss it..ha...
Ricky

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Thanks Ricky and Carl for the input.

Well Ricky now you have a nice pad on your LDG where you can rest your SSHawaiian.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

This thread points out a fundamental difference between the two tunings. The E9 has tremendous capability for moving chord passages because of the ready accessibility of getting inversions. But the shortcoming is that those inversions are for major, minor, and 7th chord triads. If you want to play extended harmonies (eg. 13b9, 7#9, 13#11 chords) such as those found in jazz and to a lesser degree in western swing, then those inversions are not so readily available. On C6, you have far greater access to extended chord harmonies, but are more limited compared to E9 for the triads.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

Good points Jeff.

If I want a simple triad on E9 I can put the root on almost any string --often sliding between inversions. I don't see that flexibility on the C6 neck. The "chord morphing" quality of the E9 neck is quite remarkable.

Then again, I can't go "boo-WAH" on the E9 neck.

David Doggett · Posted 29 Jun 2004 6:11 pm

Universal - the best of both worlds.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

For me it has a bit to do with what sort of music I am playing. For straight ahead diatonic stuff like country or singer songwriter music the E9 lays real easy for me. I see it sort of like Ricky does. When I'm playing music that uses all those ii-V modulations and substitution chords the C neck is more simple. I sometimes play the opposite neck than is normal to get another sound though. Like if I want that BooWhaa chord on the E9 I go up 6 frets (tri-tone) from wherever the root note is on the 8th string and play strings 9 ,6 and 5 with the A pedal in.

Bob

Ricky Davis · From: Bertram, Texas USA

Yes great points by Jeff and Bob..as It is the style your playing. I have always heard in triads and whole tones and the simple harmony scales. I can make all those chords on the E9 neck that Jeff used as an example; 4 different ways(well haven't figured out the 13#11 quite yet..ha)but the way they map out within basically a whole tone tuning that the E9 is; visually makes more sense to me than trying to play what I hear on the C6th neck...so I end up not using pedals hardly at all the the C6 pedal steel; so I'm stuck with playing simple melody and a few jamming licks on that neck and I'm pretty much sick of hearing me play that crap..ha..
I'm just more musical on the 9th or 13th tuning in all the genures of music I play(country; rock; western swing; rockabilly; hawaiian; and folk/bluegrass. Jazz?? I don't have a clue and never will mainly cause it doesn't do anything to me inside and exploration has been extreamly limited to NONE..ha.
Ricky

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I have to get on the E9th side of the fence also. As Ricky described, I can "see" it there. I like to play the C6th at the house, and I learn from doing that. But usually what happens is when I work up something I like on the C neck, I'll transfer it over to the E neck. So that justifies having a double neck!

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 30 June 2004 at 05:11 AM.]

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I don't want to do a "thread Jack", but after thinking on this subject a little longer I wanted to expand a little on what I said.

Ricky describes himself as being a "triad" player. Me too! Theory is the same no matter which tuning it is applied to. But for me, the ability to see and choose notes from these triads on the E9th tuning seems easier. I may have a different way of looking at triads because of this. For example, try playing a 1 sharp triad over a 5 bass note as a chord. If you have a double neck guitar play the 10th string on the C neck, and then on the E neck, play strings 5, 6, and 8 with pedals A & B pushed on the 9th fret. This would be a passing chord, or notes to call on when going from a C7th, (5 chord) to a F, (1 chord.) I know I can analyze what the chord is, but I really don't want to, and I refuse to. For my approach, it's enough for me to know how to call on this when I want it. I can get too "bogged down" in theory, and not be able to apply what I know if I try to analyze too much. That's why I think in triads.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 30 June 2004 at 06:18 AM.]

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Good thread. I also try to emulate C6 on the E9 neck. On the E9 neck I have a C# where most players have a D. With A and B pedals down I have an 9 string non-pedal A6 tuning with the two usable chromatic strings on the top. I get around easier in the E tuning since I was a standard 6 string guitarist long before I learned pedal. Always thinking in E. I do a little C6 stuff but hardly with pedals. I can find all of my single note C6 licks on the E9 and since my theory is limited and I don't know any big elaborate chords, the E9 is fine for me.

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Dave Zirbel-
Sho-Bud Super Pro, 8 x 5, ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 30 June 2004 at 06:51 AM.]

Greg Vincent · From: Folsom, CA USA

It seems to work for you, Dave! -GV

Ben Slaughter · From: Madera, California

Good to hear I'm not the only one who only uses 37.5% of their pedals.

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, TubeFex, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Charles Turpin · From: Mexico, Missouri, USA

I always try to determine what musical types of chords and progression i will be using when i start to study on theory. Cause theory is a big subject. It also depends on the octave sounds that i want. Where as the E9th doesn't have the lower strings like a guitar or piano. The c6th does. The intervalic design of the type of music is another thing to consider when you are studing theory. I look at the E9th as a more subsitute chord neck on the guitar. Than the C6th. Where as you can play two octaves in a three fret space on the C6th you cant do that on the E9th. Thus this gives you more for the ful chord and not just the top half of the chord type being Major, MInor, dominant 7th or aug or dim. hope this helps with the answer

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Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

This thread got me thinking. I went to a steel jam in San Jose and Bobby Black showed up with a 10 string non pedal guitar. The tuning was C6 with two chromatic strings on top, same intervals as the E9 standard and he was getting the best of both worlds on that thing. He was jamming along to Rocky Top and other songs made for E9 and had all the right voicings of an E9, on a C6. I heard that he does that on his pedal guitars too, play E9 licks on a C6 neck.

Who else does this?

DZ

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 01 July 2004 at 10:03 PM.]

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