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Topic: 176 Hz Hum ???? |
Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 11 May 2015 6:05 pm |
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Guys,
I have a hum in my Zum D10 or my Rig or something.
It's right at or around 176hz.
I've tried everything I can think of.
Any thoughts.
It's present I both necks.
It's present in my Nashville 400 as well as my preamp/power amp rig.
Help !!!
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 May 2015 6:27 pm
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I wanna suspect a dimmer or switchmode power supply. I don't think it's your rig, I bet it's your house.
Do you have ANYTHING plugged into a wallwart? Switch it to battery.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 11 May 2015 7:31 pm
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Kevin,
Can you post an audio clip so we can hear it?
All the best,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 12:06 pm
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Lane,
I don't have anything on a wall wart.
I'll go hunting for dimmers, but I don't recall any off hand.
Craig,
Go to:
www.roosterfish.us/humm001.mp3
for a listen.
Thanks for the replies guys..
I'm about to pull out what's left of my hair.
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 12:34 pm
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Thanks for sharing the audio.
What you have there is actually a strong 60Hz hum and an even stronger 180Hz overtone of that hum. Sometimes that natural 180Hz overtone can dominate because of your EQ settings or by the nature of the pickups or other issues. But it's ground loop hum, power supply hum, or pickup hum.
Can you describe in GREAT detail your entire setup from pickup to speaker, every piece of gear, cord lengths, and also let us know if ALL devices in the rig are powered from one and only one power strip... We can likely get to the bottom of this.
Brad |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 12 May 2015 2:24 pm
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Brad "perfect pitch" Sarno nailed it. Any chance you're using a tube amp? We used to call that "Grid" hum. You could generate it by touching a high impedance grid circuit. Something is probably missing a shield or ground connection, and acting like an antenna connected to the input. If you were near an AM station, you would probably hear the program material. Please let us know what you find.
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 6:09 pm
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ZUM D10 stock single coil pickups.
6 ft guitar cable
Goodrich pot pedal
20ft guitar cable
Fractal audio Axe a FxII preamp
3 ft guitar cable
Y adapter
Mesa Boogie 295 tube power amp
10ft speaker cables
2 yamaha 15" PA speakers in homemade closed back cabinets.
All powered from the same power strip.
I have put a ground isolator on the preamp with no change.
I have substituted-a peavey 50/50 tube power amp with no change.
If I unplug my steel the hum goes away.
The hum is the same on e9 or c6 necks or even if combined in paralell.
Can't think of any other items to mention..
Thanks,
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Drew Pierce
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 6:31 pm
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If this is a new development in your rig that wasn't there previously, this probably won't help. But I always carry a three-prong adapter in the pack-a-seat in case I'm getting a hum from the house power. This eliminates the ground on the amp's power cord and will sometimes cure the problem.
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Drew Pierce
Emmons D10 Fatback, S10 bolt-on, Zum D10, Evans RE500, Hilton volume and delay pedals. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 6:42 pm
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| Kevin Raymer wrote: |
... If I unplug my steel the hum goes away...
Thanks,
Kevin |
This sure sounds like good old single-coil pickup hum to me. Do you have a humbucker equipped guitar (steel or 6-string) to try in that setup? I'm assuming that the hum also goes away when you back off the volume pedal all the way, yes/no?
Brad |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 12 May 2015 6:55 pm
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Sounds like a bad ground return somewhere in the guitar, or no ground connection from the guitar to the pedal. Both pickups can't be bad, but a shield, or ground that's common to both pickups mave have come loose from the frame and jack. If that's the case, the volume pedal would kill the hum. An ohm meter across the guitar jack should show some continuity. If not, look for a bad ground connection somewhere upstream from the volume pedal. Keep us posted. Inquiring tinkerers want to know.
(ps: just went back and looked over your equipment list. When you get the hum fixed, try to find a good buffer somewhere. Your equipment is far too good to be running without one, especially with that 20ft cord.)
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 7:15 pm
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If you have Florescent lights in the room,single coil pickups often pick up hum from them.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 7:23 pm
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Brad,
Yes, if I back off the volume pedal all the way the hum disappears.
I have plugged my les paul into the rig and it doesn't hum.
It sure sounds like a singl coil hum.
I was just surprised when I applied a notch filter inside my axe fxIi and can nulled the hum around 176 hertz.
I dunno....
Mike Sweeney has almost the same guitar only 5 older in serial number than mine and he gets zero hum or very little.
I'll recheck my grounding on my guitar...
Thanks for all the replies.
_________________
Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio
Last edited by Kevin Raymer on 12 May 2015 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 12 May 2015 7:24 pm
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Craig,
What do you mean by a buffer ??
Thanks,
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 12 May 2015 8:16 pm
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Kevin,
First, let me address the audio clip you posted. If you have everything set to produce that level of hum, how loud is the music being produced when you pick the strings? From your posts, I gathered that there is almost no music and all hum. However, if you're getting loud steel mixed with the hum, then there may be nothing at all wrong and you simply have to orient the guitar in a different position. Did the hum appear suddenly, of has it always been a problem?
A buffer is a product that follows a device with high impedance output. (guitar, pot-type volume pedal etc.) and converts your signal to low impedance, keeping the same level. They don't work miracles, but sometimes they come pretty close. They preserve your overtones and provide great string separation. They really make a great showing when you're running long guitar cords. Some people swear by them, some people swear at them. Everybody should try one.
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 5:01 am
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| Kevin Raymer wrote: |
...
Mike Sweeney has almost the same guitar only 5 older in serial number than mine and he gets zero hum or very little.
... |
The thing is, hum comes from your environment. The single coils are just sensitive to it. Some places are dense with electromagnetic fields that cause a lot of hum. Other spaces can be very quiet. I can move from the front, upstairs of my house where it's simply impossible to use a single coil, but down in the back of my basement it's virtually dead quiet. Hum comes from electronic things, dimmers, power transformers, appliances, wiring in the wall, etc. It's completely about the environment. I bet Sweeney's guitar parked right where yours is would have the same amount of hum. And I bet if you took your guitar to where his is quiet, yours would be quiet too.
One time my wife and I rented a cabin, and I had my old push pull with a single coil. The cabin was way out in the woods and only had one power line feeding electricity to it. That single coil pickup in that environment was DEAD QUIET, just silent. There just wasn't anything generating or radiating an electromagnetic field anywhere near that cabin, and so the single coil pickup had no hum to rebroadcast.
This is why so many of us are forced to use humbuckers. I have no choice but to use a humbucker because of my home, our rehearsal space, and more than half of the venues in which I play. Often times the hum is louder than the guitar strings in some places if I use a single coil pickup.
Brad |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 1:38 pm
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Brad,
I figured that was what this would all come down to.
My rehearsal studio is in my basement almost directly under the kitchen with the fridge, upright freezer on one side,
I'm not a guitar single coil fan so I never messed with single coils much till I started playing pedal steel.
I play guitar, pedal steel, ganjo/banjitar, and mandolin on various songs throughout the nite in my little band.
I bought the AX FXII and love it for all instruments.
I'm trying to put together a rig that services the needs of all in one simple settup using the programming features of the AXE. The hum has always been present but has become more noticeable since I started programming presets and trying to balance the outputs for a single rig across 5 instruments.
I've got a Revelation preamp I may just have to pull it out and use it for steel.
Separate my steel rig from everything else and it all becomes more simple.
I was just hoping there was something inherently different about pedal steel that you guys could put me on that would balance the hum.
Maybe I just need to go to a humbucker in my Zum.
I like the tone it has as it sits but the hum IS driving me crazy.
That's why the only strat I own is a 25th anniversary collector item and not a player..
Thanks for all input and advice guys.
Sincerely,
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 1:43 pm
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Craig,
The hum has always been "around" even with my other guitar.
It just got much worse as i started messing with the Axe FXII.
I sent you an email for additional details on buffers.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Keith Hilton
From:
248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721
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Posted 13 May 2015 2:15 pm
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| How did you measure the hertz and get exactly 176? What type of frequency meter are you using? Just curious. |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 3:14 pm
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My Axe FXII by fractal audio has a notch filter module in it.
I set the Q very narrow and ran the freq until I had the min hum by ear.
The freq landed on 176.
I figured it was probably a harmonic of 60 but 176 sure seemed quieter than 180.
Go figure.
ðŸ˜
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 May 2015 3:27 pm
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Keven,
Won't the AXE notch filter eliminate the hum, or isn't the notch deep enough or narrow enough?
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 4:47 pm
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The problem I have with notching out hum frequencies is that you need to notch out 60Hz, 120Hz, 180Hz, and maybe some above that. Then all the musical notes that fall on those frequencies will be notched out too. Add to that all the downsides and phase distortion of steep notch filters, the whole sound just becomes messy and mangled.
In my mind, it's a simple solution called a "humbucker".
Brad |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 May 2015 5:21 pm
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Brad,
How 'bout introducing a very low voltage 60hz signal
out-of-phase. It seems like with a 1 volt signal across a pot, you could null the hum out. Granted, with dimmers or other square wave producers, you'll never get there.
? ? ?
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 5:53 pm
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Fascinating idea. Much like the "noise cancelling" headphones that have mic's on the outside that then take that audio, invert it's phase and add it to the sound inside the headphones. That inverted audio cancels the external noise. Seems like a similar idea.
I think the problem is that this hum noise is really SO complex. It's got the fundamental and the first 2 harmonics and then more harmonics to a lesser degree and then also random noise as well. There are computer plug-ins that do a good job of analyzing the noise and auto-gating it during the quieter passages. Smart stuff.
B |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 13 May 2015 6:27 pm
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Craig,
What brad said about the notch is exactly what I found.
The hum almost nulled out, but string 8-9-10 became much less musical.
After considering how complex the noise probably is if I dredge my old EE textbook on Laplace transforms out that's prolly why it nulled out at 176 rather than dead on 180..
I don't know what to do I guess keep tinkering on EQ and preamp balancing.
Very interesting though..
I tried noise gates which work good on distorted sounds, but cut off the sustain on clean sounds. Couldn't find a threshold setting that worked well.
Kevin
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 May 2015 6:37 pm
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Strings 8, 9, & 10 ? You mean you guys actually use those strings?
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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