Emmons Bolt on Changer spacers

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

I am rebuilding a 67 Bolt on D10 and am having trouble with the changer.

Note: I know there are lots of people I could have hired to rebuild this guitar. I chose to do it myself as I wanted to learn and also enjoy the process. If you don't think that's cool, please just pass this thread up. I'm looking for help here, not admonishment for trying something new. I don't claim to be an expert. If I was I wouldn't be asking for help.

When I took it apart there were 13 spacers in each changer. Two at each end and one between each sets of fingers (raise and lower). Now that I've cleaned the guitar, there seems to be extra space in the changers - both of them. Two spacers (1/16) width gap in each.

I took extra care to keep all the spacers and fingers in the exact order that they came off in.

The changers will bolt right on to the necks, so it seems that the pillow blocks are all on the axles correctly.

My other bolt on has fourteen spacers in one changer so it seems this is not totally unheard of... I read in a thread that Mike Cass posted in that he had seen the same and it was not abnormal.

Here's my question -

Is there some step I've missed? Am I not doing some crucial step to make them fit back together? Will they magically tighten when strung up? Or do I just need to add spacers, even though it didn't seem to need them before I cleaned it? Could there have been so much gunk in there (the guitar was filthy) that they seemed together but weren't? Some other magical answer that is beyond my grasp?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am looking forward to getting started on rebuilding the underside and won't be able to until I sort this out.

Thanks!

Abe
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

In a lot of cases the pillow blocks are pressed on the changer axle and are tough to get on and off so be sure that they're pressed on securely (+/-.020" or so they'll still line up ok). Also I have seen different thicknesses and number of changer spacers/washers used on the same guitar (double neck) so be sure you have selected the appropriate spacers. It is not a big deal to add an extra spacer if you need to between the pillow block and the finger- just be sure the fingers aren't sloppy but also move freely.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Abe, the same thing happened to me on a LeGrand and also a Push pull that I rebuilt. What I determined is that when we put changers back to getter, we tend to make sure that each finger and spacer is flush up to the next one. This is not necessarily right. If you take that 16th of an inch and divide it between 10 strings, you can't even notice a gap. When strings are put on tuned and pulls start to activate, it will sorta even out.

This is all providing you put back together as it came apart and from what you said, I'm sure you did.

Also what Jim said.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate it.
Abe
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

With the gap of 1/16th of an inch, or 0.0625" that is large and leads to a probable cause.

The original axle pillows are likely to have been replaced with fresh Emmons Bolt-on axle pillows or pillows from a wood neck guitar with a tail piece.

The person making this switch probably did not know there is a difference -- that a wood neck Bolt-on has different mounting or that the replacement pillows you can get from Emmons are actually skinnier -- leaving you with an extra 1/16th gap.

I have seen this before when parts were switched around on guitars. The parts look the same, but they are not.

Ask the person you got the guitar from.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Thanks Chris. I compared my two 67 bolt ons and the pillow blocks are the same size, so either both guitars were switched out or neither. I'm inclined to think the latter. Mystery remains unsolved...
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

How wide are they?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

They are 3/8". What should they be?
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

My bolt on is 3/8 Abe, just measured it. On micrometer, is 380/1000. Think I read it right,lol.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Thanks Henry - your bolt on is wood necks or metal?
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Mines wood necks, D10
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

I asked abuddy what his 66 bolt on (metal necks) measures at and it is also 3/8"...
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Mike Bagwell · From: Greenville, SC, USA

My 66 D10 metal neck bolt-on measures 3/8" on both necks.

Mike

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Are you guys measuring exactly 0.375"?

Abe has what he says is 0.0625" slop in his changer. The most I have ever seen is in the low 20 thousandths. Trying to figure out where an extra, perhaps 0.040", came from, and it could be just 0.020" per axle pillow.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Chris, I measured the very top of pillow with a micrometer and got 0.380. The E9th and C6th measure within .003 of each other.
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Well, I put an additional spacer in each changer and am down to 1/32" of slop. I strung it up and put the lower return springs on and can no longer detect a gap. What do ya'll think? She sounds great and has incredible sustain (I backed all the neck screws off about a quarter turn). I guess I'll see how she plays this way...? Or will it wear more on the changer without being really snug?
Thank you all for helping with your advice...
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Looks like you hit it whopped Abe, good work
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Mike Cass · Posted 11 Apr 2015 11:41 pm

Abe,

deal is you cleaned the changers. no telling how much space you gained by doing that.

what you call a spacer we refer to as a shim, which we use to align and center the fingers equi-distant end to end on the axle, and to set the correct string spacing on the p/p, as opposed to the actual solid aluminum spacers used on the LG changers, which also center the changers on the axles and help to set the string spacing(no drop fingers there to assist)and help to give it the classic p/p look.

But solid spacers can be used on either end of a p/p cage as well, provided that they don't interfere with the line up process w/regard to the open & drop tuning screw holes/contact points.
Doug Palmer Im sure has seen those used on p/p's in the '70's, esp on S-10 guitars.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Thanks Mike. It's playing really well at the moment. My only worry is that the slop in the changer might be affecting the tone and that it might wear faster ..? Any thoughts on this...?

Thanks again.
Abe
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi Mike Cass,

Iâ€™m glad to see you posting again on the SGF!

- You have a wealth of knowledge about Emmons guitars, especially push-pulls. I have one, and am always eager to learn more about it from an expert like you.
- You are an excellent playerâ€”Iâ€™ve seen some clips of you playing with Ray Price, and you sounded great!

I hope you post more often.

******************************************************
I have a question for youâ€¦
There have been a lot of discussions about what kind of lubrication to use; what do you use on the changer and roller-nuts when you build/re-build an Emmons guitar?

Best,
Dave

Mike Cass · Posted 19 Apr 2015 3:54 am

Abe,

that's a good question...
I hate slop and go out of my way to avoid it as those aluminum fingers if ratcheting, will groove an axle...seen it too many times. Then you really open Pandora's box.

The way Big Ron taught me is that when a changer is lubed(white lithium grease), assembled, correctly aligned & ready to mount, you should be able to grab it by the pillow mount blocks(most still- original '64 wraparounds or bolt-on's)or the pillow mount legs('65 wraparound, cut-tail or LG w/back mount blocks installed on those 2 of course)and shake the whole cage back & forth to check for smooth rotation. At the same time you check each finger assembly for any sideways slop at all. He was very picky on that. If its there it needs to go away....not so tight that smooth rotation is inhibited, but relying on the drop springs to tighten it up upon installation wont get it. Gotta be right from the git-go. You'll know it when you feel it. Also, slop gives you the wear inducing, twisting/ratcheting motion upon activation which decreases mechanical advantage and can in some cases cause incorrect intonation.

As for the tone factor; we all know that the genius of near any Emmons guitar is that even in a sad state of disrepair and neglect it may play like you know what, yet still often give the rest a good run for their $$ tone-wise...JMHO there, again, seen that too many times though....but the tone of any steel guitar is definitely helped by the fingers rotating flat upon the axle surface. That was just common sense according to Big Ron.

I use the factory rule of white lithium grease to lube for a full changer rebuild....or if theyre still tight enough for my taste but needing minor cleaning, I'll soak them fully assembled in lacquer thinner for 2 days, repeatedly rinsing and agitating them, after which time I blow them clean & dry w/an air compressor, machine buff, re-soak in the solvent to remove compound residue and then soak it in 30wt motor oil for 24 hours before reinstallation....nice little BA trick there Winking

after removing and cleaning the roller assemblies I lubricate w/Zoom or Super Oil upon reinstallation.

yeah, sure do miss The Chief.... sit here wearin' out YouTube a lotta nights.

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Thanks Mike. This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping for. I appreciate it.

Abe
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Mostly Pre-1970 guitars.

Robert Daniels · From: Chicago, Illinois, USA

...and that's exactly why I send my guitars to Mike.
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Emmons Student Model 3x4,Twin Reverb with JBL's, clams galore!

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Mike,

Thanks for your quick response to my question about lubrication for Emmons guitars.

I'm sure that a lot of us also greatly miss Ray Price.
Could you share some stories in the Story Section about your time touring with "The Chief"?

-Dave

Lavon Chappell · From: The Heart of Dixie

What is the correct size of music/piano wire to connect the rods to the fingers

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