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Topic: Formica Body vs: Lacquer Body |
Jim Saunders
From:
Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jun 2004 12:45 pm |
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I'm wondering about the difference in the body of the two types of finishes and if they are interchangable. That is could a formica bodied guitar be converted to a lacquer body? Or are they too different animals.
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Emmons Legrande II, D10, Gibson Console Grande D8, Peavey Session 2000, Peavey Nashville 112.
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 11:55 am
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Jim,
Normaly formica guitars have less figured wood,(straighter grain) some say for better tone, they probably would not look as good as a "born" laquer finish guitar, as the wood there would be selected for the best figure.
Assuming you were going to remove the formica and go for a laquer finish. If it needs new formica, take it off and look, you may luck out.
Bill |
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Terry Edwards
From:
Florida... livin' on spongecake...
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 4:02 pm
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As long as it is black it should not affect your tone!
t |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 4:59 pm
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Wouldn't Formica bodies have to be a little smaller than lacquer bodies, to make up for the thickness of the Formica?  |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 7:24 pm
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Are lacquer-bodied guitars veneered or solid timber? If it's the former, is veneer similar in gauge to mica?
An interesting question - not fascinating, but interesting....  |
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Jim Saunders
From:
Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 7:31 pm
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| Roger, your response is exactly what I was thinking. That is, are the lacquer panels a veneer applied to the block of wood, or is it the block itself that is finished. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 7:38 pm
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| In my experience, generally lacquer bodies guitars are solid- not commonly veneered. That said, Mark Giles does a wonderful job of applying figured veneers to straight grained maple. There are those who claim that straight grained woods are better for tone, hence the figured veneer over straight grained wood. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Jun 2004 8:02 pm
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| My lacquer MSA is solid wood. My mica one os a laminate. The lacquer one sounds a lot better, but the guitars have different pickups, and that's undoubtedly a factor in their different tones, so I can't say that it's all a matter of the wood and finish. [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 05 June 2004 at 07:32 PM.] |
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jim milewski
From:
stowe, vermont
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 3:15 am
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| I would think as Jim said, the body would be two thicknesses of formica more width on a lacguer body, or two less on a formica, duh, you know what i mean |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 3:40 am
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I believe that some of the old guitars like the ShoBud were solid maple.But,are not a lot of the newer guitars made with a laminated die board type of wood ? A friend of mine has a Mullen that was a beautiful blue, it is gradually turning to a green color. Is this normal for laquer finishes ?
Is there something that will bring back the original color ? As usual I have more questions than answers..
Bud |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 6:19 am
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You're right, Bud - my old Pro-III had a solid birdseye body, and was nearly as pretty underneath as it was on top!
RR |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 6:58 am
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Lacquer will change color over the years. I had a Sho~Bud LDG and the green faded considerably over the years. Also, lacquer is usually clear coated and the clear coat wants to "yellow". Which really isn't a bad thing. In fact, when you refinish an old, blond guitar they make a tinted clear coat so you can make it look "aged" right off the bat.
Erv |
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Jim Saunders
From:
Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 7:26 am
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| Erv, your're right about the aging lacquer. I spoke with a Gibson tech about my Console Grande. The white binding has yellowed considerably. He said it is the lacquer that has yellowed, not the binding. Most purists would balk at returning it to white. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 7:30 am
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Green and Blue are the hardest color/dye for Maple to take, without if turning on ya.
Shobud used "Food Coloring" for their Dye way back when and after being exposed to any sunlight; it will turn. It is VERY VERY important to bleach the Maple over and over; probably at least 3 times...before you dye the wood blue or Green. Ed Fulawka and I discussed this quite a bit before we decided on a Blue Fulawka that will NEVER turn; and before I sold mine, I had it in every weather situation and is still just as blue as blue and will always be.
Ricky |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 7:54 am
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Mike-I agree with you that the wood lacquer bodies on the later model MSA"s,IMO, has a better tone than the old mica's.
I have had both kinds and the MSA "Universal" model I have now has a very good tone, more like a Sho-Bud wood body.
The pickup is mounted in an aluminum pocket , same as Sho-Buds, and that helps with the sound too.........al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 8:33 am
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When I bought my Kline, I had my choice of two. White Mica, and a lacquered wood that looked like walnut and maple. I chose the Mica guitar, cuz I was playing 6 nights a week and I thought it would hold up better. Now I play mostly for my own pleasure. Last week, an old guy, older than me at 58 anyway, gave me a plank of curly maple that he got from his grandfather in Pa. 40 years ago. It's stunning! And my brain thought, "Can I get this cut into a thin enough veneer to replace the Mica on my Kline?" I haven't wanted to ask Joe about it cuz I thought he might be offended. But that wood would make an awesome lookin' guitar. Can it be done?
JB[This message was edited by John Billings on 05 June 2004 at 09:42 AM.] [This message was edited by John Billings on 05 June 2004 at 04:17 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 8:41 am
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Oh, and about Bill Ford's comment about straight grain versus figured grain, and it's effect on sound. As far as 6-stringers, years ago I was lookin' to buy an L-5. I played several, and the best sounding one, by far, was one with very straight grain. It was also the plainest of the bunch,
by far. The owner's son told me his father was a big band player who had very definite ideas about sound, and had ordered the guitar from Gibson with specific demands about the selection of wood. Too expensive for me, but it did sound great, and was head-and-shoulders above the fancier ones that I played |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 12:56 pm
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John,
The traditional way to get veneer is to shave it off of the log,looks like unrolling paper off a roll when you see the process, don't know if it can be done with a piece of plank, that been said with todays technology, who knows.There are several wood vendors that I'm sure you can buy thin pieces of any wood,you would need to talk to a person, so you would'nt get "just a piece of maple".Look here!!!!
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/samples/samples4.html
Bill[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 05 June 2004 at 02:01 PM.] |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Jun 2004 3:15 pm
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Actually, Bill, I think that the "peeling" method is more modern. I used to deal in antique furniture, and those veneers were hand-cut. I've got a Hepplewhite chest upstairs, and the veneer is at least an 1/8" thick. I was thinking that with the right bandsaw and a good fence, you could make veneer by the re-saw method. I've looked at a lot of veneers in the past, and I gotta tell ya, this fiddleback plank that I have is just amazing. I think that, with a vintage-tinted finish, my Kline would be an incredible head-turner. How thick is the Mica on a guitar, anyway? I know that some of the veneers I've seen at the Woodworker's Store are absolutely paper thin.
JB |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 10:14 am
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Formica is .043", Or aprox 3/64" I would be concerned with how smooth the surface would be on a sawn piece,don't know how thin a planer could go if you ripped it and planned it.If you could get it to about 1/16", it should work and be dureable.
Bill |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2004 8:11 pm
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Maybe cut it close, and then use a thickness sander. I wonder if that would work? I'm gonna have to make a call to a cabinet maker friend. I'm sure he'll know, and he has all the tools. But who can I get to do it? And, what will it cost? I gotta sell that GFI.
JB |
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MARK GILES
From:
HAMILTON, TEXAS
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Posted 7 Jun 2004 9:02 pm
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Roger, Generally, most are solid wood.However, I just refinished an Emmons P/P That had solid tops and necks but the aprons were veneered. (The customer had sanded through it trying to get rid of the color.) I have also done some veneer work on others. So I suppose there are both kinds out there. But most are solid
Willis, The old Buds were prone to turning color due to the type of dye used. So yes, it is normal for the older guitars. Today, the dyes are a bit more stable and should stay for quite a while. At least that is what I am told. I guess we will know in a few decades. The only way to bring the Bud back to normal is to strip it and refinish it.
John B., The board can be cut into veneer on a bandsaw then sanded to final thickness on a sander. Mica is approx. .043-.047(standard grade) these days. Older mica is about .010 thicker. Wood veneer is about .024 . Your board could be cut however thick you need it. I would love to see a picture of you board. On second thought, I would rather see the board. The more I think about, I would rather have the board.
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