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Topic: Phrasing question. Please help. |
Scott McRee
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 5:22 pm |
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| So I'm still in the beginner states of learning and have come across a problem that has happened to me a few times with songs and cannot figure out why. It's kind of an odd is sure. Let me try to explain. Example- last night I was listening to Bruce Springsteen no surrender and wanted to play some steel with it so I learned the chords which are simple and straightforward and when I sat down to play I noticed that whenever I hit the chords that were the correct chords (triads/ 2 notes together), it never sounded good. I don't know why this happens because even though I know there is better/many ways to phrase something, shouldn't it always sound atleast normal and decent when you play the same chord haha? I've never had this problem with other instruments. If I play a piano chord that is the same chord and the acoustic guitar is playing, they go together. I'm just trying to play some lovely sounding swells and pretty licks over a song like no surrender because it had that kind of sad more serious vibe to it for lack of a better term. Some songs are upbeat and some are opposite. This is more of a singer songwriter tune but yet I can't ever get a "singer songwriter" sound from the steel. I have realized that whenever I play the root chord notes, they usually always works throughout the whole songs. Should I be playing more scale notes from the key of the song or do yall follow the triads etc and if so why aren't mine sounding right. Thanks in advance for the help. I know this is an odd question. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 5:41 pm
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It's a GOOD question actually.
In the first phase of learning you have to learn how to tune, how to hear the tuning and how your tuning works with other instruments.
How do you tune?
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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Scott McRee
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 5:53 pm
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| I tune standard. Just normal with my Peterson flip tuner. I don't think its a tuning issue because when I play triads or whatever the notes might be and compare them with the same notes on my keyboard they sound the same. It's like a timbre issue or something. I just don't know why these notes or chords I'm playing don't sound good or atleast pretty good considering they're the same chords that somg is being played in. The only time it sounds normal is if I stay on the 1. The root. Thanks for your reply and any advice or help would be great. I think once I get an understanding on this I'll really start making progress. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 6:38 pm
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It MIGHT be an intonation thing. For which there's no cure but seat time and paying attention. When you start playing along with more than just a rhythm track, clashes become more glaring.
BTW: phrasing is a different term altogether. It means how notes are grouped by time. As in grouping notes (if you think of music as language, those would be words) into a group that belongs together (I. E. a phrase).
It's noticed most when people use different phrasing than you expect. Most notably Frank Sinatra at his peak or Willie Nelson.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Carl Kilmer
From:
East Central, Illinois
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 6:40 pm
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Just try playing the proper chords with it first, and then
other notes or scale notes to it that fit in. Try watching
your left hand to make sure you're on the fret, not your
right hand. If your not on the fret, all notes sound bad.
_________________
aka "Lucky Kay"--Custom built Rittenberry SD10 3X5, Walker S/S, NV-112, and Hilton Pedal |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 7:00 pm
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| Scott McRee wrote: |
| It's like a timbre issue or something. |
I'm pretty sure I've run into the same thing. The pedal steel has a distinct timbre that doesn't fit with most kinds of music. Based on the fact that you say you're still a beginner, and the fact that you're talking about the musical sound in terms of how pleasing it is, your ears may not be developed enough to fully distinguish between the reasons why different harmonies sound good or bad. It's very possible that you're close enough in intonation, but very far off in timbre. If you break down sounds enough, it's all just waves of energy. Intonation and timbre are both describe variables in the form of that wave. Intonation is the wavelength; timbre is the shape (not size) and cleanness of the wave.
I'm going to make a bold statement, so I invite anyone on the forum to disagree with me on this. Pedal steel doesn't just discipline your ear, it disciplines your taste as well. There are many places that it doesn't belong, and even in the places where it does belong, you have to choose your parts carefully and sparingly. Your excitement about playing music and playing along to the songs you love makes you want to add your presence to the entire song, but that's not where pedal steel is at its best. For the songs that steel doesn't fit with, it's better to appreciate the as they are and focus your energy on the types of songs where it does fit.
On the other hand, you can experiment with effects to change the timbre of the steel to see if that improves things. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 9:25 pm Just a suggestion.............
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It worked for me, prior to the advent of TABS.........
I listened extremely closely to all of JERRY BYRD's early records with a wide variety of different vocalist. I studied them until I could figure out how HE was handling phrasing during back-up playing.
You can hear many, many tunes on the JerryByrd-FanClub.com
Play excerpts from the song and forget the scales, etc. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 9:31 pm
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Curt,
You couldn't be more wrong. The pedalsteel is actually a perfect instrument for blending with any sort of music. Mostly depending on the players understanding of the genre.
1. Timbre; The sound of the steel is primarily even overtones. That means it can play closely voiced chords and melodic figures without having sonic conflicts with other instruments. It can live within the sound of other instruments and play a support role or rise to the surface with ease.
2. Phrasing: Because of the freedom the sustain, bar and pedals give it you can fill the role of a string quartet or a horn section. I was playing with a horn section tonight as a matter of fact and in the morning I'm playing the Pachelbel canon in D for a wedding processional.
3. Intonation: if you get your ears and hands together the steel can be played more in tune than many instruments.
There is more but that is enough to make my point.
The steel players I know that are making a decent living playing make a big chunk of there money working with singer songwriters. That stuff is chocolate cake and ice cream. It is so freakin easy on the steel I feel guilty taking money to play it.
Scott, Get in touch and we can do a skype session. I'll show you a couple ways to deal with the singer/songwriter thing that should clear things up pronto.
_________________
Bob |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2015 9:55 pm
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I kind of fall in with Bob on this one. For me, steel fits with nearly any kind of music or genre. Just takes some sensitivity to find the blend. Scott, if you have time, come by the studio and let's kick some stuff around!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Scott McRee
From:
Georgia, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 7:26 am
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Everyone....
Thank you so much for the replies. I sat back down at the steel this morning realized one of my chords was wrong haha. There's the biggest problem. Secondly, I agree totally that steel can be incorporated pleasantly in most types of music either with the proper different effects or just with the proper notes and scales used. I also agree with Carl in the sense that it's not an instrument that needs to be played through a whole song always. It's a very tasteful colorful instrument that when played at the right time is just absolutely beautiful. Mark I can't wait to come down and pick your brain a bit. I'd love to just play some songs I like and see what kind of licks you choose to play to them so I can see where you're starting your licks or chords, whether theyre started on the root, 3rd etc.
Anyone reading this thread, I have a good understanding of theory on the steel and now I just need to learn a bunch of licks and things to add to my repertoire. My theory was very average until I listened to Mark Van Allens playing by the number CDs. If you don't have them, contact him and buy them from him. Thank me later. They are the best money you'll spend to understand the theory on the steel. Not to mention, extremely reasonably priced. Just trust me on this one. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 7:31 am
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Choosing the wrong notes will do it every time
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 7:42 am
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Every so often the "wrong" notes are a pleasant surprise. Not most of the time, but…
In my first band, I sometimes couldn't tell if a bad note was was the result of an incorrectly used pedal/lever, wrong string selection, etc. After a while you get much better at feeling which is what and it becomes much easier to correct or morph into a "good note".  But at the time, I would just look at the bass player with a quizzical "why would you do that?" kind of look. Eventually whenever I hit a clam the whole band would frown at the bass player (in that band, he was far and away the most advanced player). One of my fond memories from those days was his laughing admonition "Van Allen, cut it out!".
And many thanks for the course kudos, Scott. So glad it's helpful!
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 8:18 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Curt,
The pedalsteel is actually a perfect instrument for blending with any sort of music. |
Just because you can doesn't mean you should  . But seriously, I'll concede this argument. Aside from my own personal attempts, I can't say I've heard too much music where steel was an unwelcome addition.... probably because in any kind of music besides classic county, the addition of steel is a deliberate choice. I'm sticking to my guns in saying that if steel guitar didn't sound so bright and whiny, that it'd fit in even better with other instrumentation. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 8:59 am
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| steels don't necessarily sound bright and whiny. that would be the result of someone's playing. |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 10:22 am A fabulous piece of work.............
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Beautiful performance.......
Such excellent taste..........
Wonderful tone..................
Keep 'em coming and Thanx for sharing. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 12:35 pm
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Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology. That definitely sounds "bright" to me. You don't have to focus on it, it comes right out at you. It probably doesn't have the "highs" that most people think of as "bright". It's a very nice piece. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 7:30 pm
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Not to derail the thread but the "bright and whiny" thing is something I think resonates importantly for us as players and "musical contributors".
Tone and overall "bite" are the player's prerogative. As a steeler "coming up" in the late 70's, I noticed an awful lot of commercial steel sounded very thin, and for lack of a better term, whiny, or biting. Looking back, I think part of that can be attributed to playing Sho Bud, Fender, or Emmons guitars through pot pedals into Fender Twins or similar amps. Also, (I'm not talking about master session players here), but a good bit of steel playing then had some questionable intonation going on. The combination, I believe, seared a "classic steel" sound into a lot of peoples' heads that was high-end heavy, thin, and a bit pitchy.
I have always preferred a thicker or fatter tone, and the solid state amps and the more recent tube preamp/amp combinations make that easier to access. I have played many session dates where I was hired to add a "classic" pedal steel vibe to just one song on a project, to have much surprise evinced at the tone I was getting, (possibly phrasing or melodic ideas the artist/producer wasn't expecting), and end up playing on 4 or 5 more tracks or the whole album. I don't attribute this to any greatness on my part, but rather to a warmer tone, that doesn't stick out so much, and blends in better with more styles of arrangement. I've certainly paid attention, as the more tracks the better for a session guy!
At the same time I've noticed many of the younger guys coming up (at least around here) seeming to gravitate toward the same "classic" bity, somewhat shrill, thin tone, I think again emulating some of the older playing they're referencing from the 60's and 70's, Not denigrating, as the audiences seem to be saying "Ah, now that's steel guitar!"
Just observations, I've always been one to try to make my own way rather than copy much of what I've heard played. I realize the pinnacle for many players lies in reverently executing classic parts from past masters. I guess what I'm suggesting is that there are definitely divergent ways of approaching tone, amplification and delivery. And those choices can affect how people perceive what we do.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2015 7:31 pm
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Thanks, double post fairy.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com
Last edited by Mark van Allen on 5 Apr 2015 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 3:49 am
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I don't think tone is the issue here. "No Surrender" certainly isn't soft jazz, and the jangly distorted guitars in it, along with the pounding snare, mean that soft tones probably won't enhance the cut. Note choice, chord voicings, where you're playing on the neck, and intonation, however, are important.
Have you had any lessons? I'd suggest you find a player of the style you're interested in, or just an advanced player, and doing a few with him. You'll learn more with a live teacher, and you'll learn far faster. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 4:15 am
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Donny, I'm thinking an approach like Kim Deschamps on the early Cowboy Junkies might work in it. Perhaps a bit of chorus, lots of seventhless ninths (I still don't like that Sus2 name).
Sure, I think an upbeat drive-enhancing approach would be what I would choose, but I THINK I get his drift and [stroking chin to complete the Hollywood cliché] it just might work.
I plan to do my taxes this Monday, I may try it out if I get the time.
But yeah, what Donny said is important. There are very few frontmen on steel (after Alvino Rey and Robert Randolph, it gets slim), so we're all sidefolk. Gotta work in the service of the song.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 6:45 am
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
Not to derail the thread but the "bright and whiny" thing is something I think resonates importantly for us as players and "musical contributors".
Tone and overall "bite" are the player's prerogative. As a steeler "coming up" in the late 70's, I noticed an awful lot of commercial steel sounded very thin, and for lack of a better term, whiny, or biting. Looking back, I think part of that can be attributed to playing Sho Bud, Fender, or Emmons guitars through pot pedals into Fender Twins or similar amps. Also, (I'm not talking about master session players here), but a good bit of steel playing then had some questionable intonation going on. The combination, I believe, seared a "classic steel" sound into a lot of peoples' heads that was high-end heavy, thin, and a bit pitchy.
I have always preferred a thicker or fatter tone, and the solid state amps and the more recent tube preamp/amp combinations make that easier to access. I have played many session dates where I was hired to add a "classic" pedal steel vibe to just one song on a project, to have much surprise evinced at the tone I was getting, (possibly phrasing or melodic ideas the artist/producer wasn't expecting), and end up playing on 4 or 5 more tracks or the whole album. I don't attribute this to any greatness on my part, but rather to a warmer tone, that doesn't stick out so much, and blends in better with more styles of arrangement. I've certainly paid attention, as the more tracks the better for a session guy! |
The thread was derailed before you got here.  The guy wrote a post due to a wrong chord and here we go talking about the same old thing: tone and intonation.
Like you, I appreciate the warmer tones. However, I still think the steel's tonal range is inherently narrow due to the pickups.... and that tonal range does not lend itself to blending in or harmonizing with many instruments. That's part of the reason we have a volume pedal, right? Not just for sustain and hiding string attack, but also because we need a handicap for staying out of the way of other instruments. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 8:00 am
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Curt, I wasn't sure that Scott's problem with "it sounding wrong" was due to chord formation. There are so many vagaries on our goofy instrument…
I would like to have dual pickups, like Chuck is including on some Desert Rose models, and perhaps some other tonal options. The volume pedal does offer some real tonal and attack options as far as placing the sound into the mix.
Aside from "incorrect" notes or chords, When I first started out, I found I had some days in practice or on stage when I seemed unconnected with the instrument, everything was harder and "farther away" for want of a better descriptive term. At first I couldn't tell if it was "me" or something going on with the guitar, but I eventually learned that I had on and off days, and just had to push through the less-connected moments.
In fact, Scott happened to be at a gig I played last week where I was experiencing that- everything felt disconnected, my hands weren't listening to my head, I felt like I was fighting the guitar to play in tune, chords I knew were right sounded wrong,I just didn't feel like myself. I don't know if that happens to everybody, but I try to concentrate on some aspect of technique like blocking or volume pedal to re-connect my head. It got better the second set, but it is disconcerting.
I've also found that occurring more with certain guitars and less or none with others… without always being able to figure out the reasons.
I don't know if you noticed me struggling, Scott, but at least in my case, it's gotten better with time. Seat time is the mantra, and Malcom Gladwell's 10K hours might be in the ballpark for mastery. That being said, I've witnessed quite a few of the "masters" having an off day, although it's usually more obvious to the player than the audience. If you get to view the amazing "Bell Cove" video you'll see an obviously uncomfortable Buddy Emmons finding his stride, while still laying down astounding chops. Very inspiring.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 8:07 am
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| Getting the eq set right on the amp particularly on string attack is the critical factor for me on connectedness. Some eq settings make a guitar feel laborious to play. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Apr 2015 9:23 am
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Like you, I appreciate the warmer tones. However, I still think the steel's tonal range is inherently narrow due to the pickups.... and that tonal range does not lend itself to blending in or harmonizing with many instruments. That's part of the reason we have a volume pedal, right? Not just for sustain and hiding string attack, but also because we need a handicap for staying out of the way of other instruments. |
give yourself a few years of experience and you'll realize how ridiculous this statement is. |
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