Here we go again (pitchy tone while playing with a band)

Michael Berry · From: California, USA

I've read a lot of threads on the topic and *thought* I had a decent understanding of JI vs ET on a steel but I hope to learn more.

I just got a link to a video of a gig I played with 2 other guitarists and a bassist. No drums, no keys, just the 4 of us.

I tune my Mullen RP using a Peterson on the SE9 Sweetened setting. When I manage to put my bar in the right place it sounds pretty good.

But when the whole band plays and I jump in it's cringeworthy at times. When we played the gig, I thought, "That didn't sound half bad." When I heard it back I had a serious WTF!? moment or two.

I've been playing a couple years and have a looong way to go, but am hoping to glean some useful info from all the knowledgeable and more experienced players here and also hope to avoid some of the "tuning pissing contest" back and forth that I've read on so many other threads on this topic.

Any advice, observations, etc any of you can provide is much appreciated.

Thanks,
Michael

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

I'm not one of the more experienced players but I have played and recorded enough to learn that your left hand and your use of vibrato is just as important to playing in tune with others as is how you tune your strings relative to each other.

I also have found that if you're plucking 3 or more strings at once it becomes way more difficult to play in tune with others. Anytime I'm playing with guitarists or pianists, I pretty much limit myself to no more than two strings at once or scalar runs, prioritizing color and 3rds to the chord and limiting roots and 5ths.

It's all about logging serious seat time.

YMMV as they say.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

you mention playing for a couple years. i had a big revelation once...after playing for 3 years i thought i was really getting good! then, after ten years, i realized i sucked and had a lot more to learn.
alot of it is just getting comfy with the mechanics of the machine and hearing pitch with your ears and not with your eyes.
now i rarely tune unless i absolutely have to. there is alot of room for fluctuation .

Marc Friedland · From: Fort Collins, CO

Michael,
I recommend experimenting with your tuning. Why not try tuning everything straight up to center 440, just like the guitar players you're playing with tune to? And record it too, and listen back, and see how it sounds to you as compared to the recording where you used the "sweetened" tuning. If it doesn't sound as good, then perhaps you're already using the right tuning for you, just needing more playing time to hone it in even better. If it sounds better to you, maybe you should consider tuning straight up more often. If it basically sounds the same to you, then I suggest that neither tuning method is helping you play in tune, for the moment anyway.
I remember about 15 years ago playing live gigs where I recorded everything and listening back I heard pitch problems I was having, but not every song, or the entire song, so that told me it was definitely me! I did a home recording with just a drum machine, bass guitar, and finely tuned rhythm guitar of a same song I didn't like from the live recording. To my ear, I was now able to play pretty much in tune with very little effort. That was a relief to hear that, but the lesson learned was that I need to pay more attention when playing live gigs and I still needed to learn how to consistently play as close as possible to the "tuning center" of all the instruments and vocals I hear during a gig. I've played with bands that consisted of a lead singer who was singing to his acoustic guitar which I believe was tuned inconsistently during the night because of the cheap capo he was taking on & off, a guitar player bending his strings every which way and always struggling to play in tune, a bass player who tuned his guitar once every 3 years when he put new strings on it - well you get the idea, certainly not the perfectly controlled environment to play the pedal steel and have it sound in tune with everyone. With more & more live experience and concentration, I eventually got better (not perfect) when playing with bands where the instruments and vocals were only occasionally flirting with being in tune.

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

I used to set up a small mixer with a cd player and a mic'd amp to practice with. I'd use Jeffran, or some other, backing tracks and record the practice. Also, I only used headphones to do this. You can record into a tape deck or cd burner, or usb to computer. The important thing is being able to really hear yourself against the singer and bass player. A Line 6 Pod is good too, no volume, so you can play 4-5 hours every night. As everyone else said, "seat time." I'd add, "in tune seat time."

Keep at it! I agree, tempered tunings are not for everyone. Search out b0b's tempered tuning, and do that 440 thing above...with the headphone idea I mentioned. Live music is hard to hear well. Your hands and ears need serious tuning time in a less cluttered environment.

Just some thoughts.
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David Nugent · From: Gum Spring, Va.

I believe that the 'SE9' tuning is the Newman version and tunes the open 'E-s' to 442 rather than 440. You might try the 'OE9' and see if that works better for you.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Brian, vibrato is NOT a substitute for intonation.
I recommend practicing to backing tracks, karaoke tracks, whatever, and either in the dark or blindfolded. Used your ears to guide your hands.
With seat time, this problem DOES go away.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

Lane, I did not say vibrato was a substitute for intonation. There is no "substitute" for intonation.

My point was that what the left hand does with the bar IS more important than how the strings are tuned RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER for playing in tune.

I'll stick by that opinion. Smile

In fact, to Chris's point, I would propose that the more experienced among us (me not included) could take a pedal steel some what out of tune and make it sound in tune with the bar, other than at the nut of course. Vibrato WOULD play a role in that.

I think many players waste too much time on "tunings". The rubber hits the road when the bar hits the strings and how the thing is tuned at the nut is only part of the equation.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

UNLESS YOU........tune in commonality with the other string instruments in the group you're likely going to be grossly out of tune.

If you're in tune but the lead guitar player is an eighth of a tone higher while the rhythm guitar player is a half tone flat, compared to YOU..........

the end result will be nothing but crapolla.

It's worse when you ad an accordion or piano to the mix.

That's why we olde timers that don't know much because we're old fashioned players and seldom play with electronic gadgets..........sound reasonably good when we play in a group.

Try tuning all the instruments to a common "E" above middle C on the piano. I think you'll be happily surprised.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Brian, I'd say that the tuning of the intervals is far more important than being on the same standard as the band (unless, like me, you like the open strings, then you have to have the intervals right AND be on the same standard).
If your minor and major thirds are consonant within themselves, you can use the bar to tune them to the band. Unless your vibrato is the waggly sort (I never learned that one, my bar stays at right angles to the strings), vibrato won't adjust the intervals.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

I try to keep my guitars in tune, and play in tune. I do record a lot of gigs and always hear something that sounds out of tune. Most of the time, there is a keyboard in the band. But the real problem is guitar and bass players that are just plain careless with their tuning. One guitar player tunes his guitar at the beginning of the night, then he just squeezes the strings so hard, that he always sounds out of tune. I'd like to play with more skilled musicians but that probably won't happen around here.

Brian McGaughey · From: Orcas Island, WA USA

You know, I don't disagree with ya at all, Lane.

I sat down at another fellows pedal steel awhile back. I had always thought he got pretty good tone and played in tune. He uses a fair amount of vibrato. I had just heard him play. I sat down and played his steel and realized right away more variation away from straight up ET on his guitar than mine. I could't get it to play in tune like he could.

It struck me then like a ton of bricks that he was able to do it with his left hand approach.

Needless to say I'm not dismissing tuning properly to a band agreed upon center, but rather the very small differences in tuning approachs don't make as much difference in playing in tune with a band as bar placement and vibrato does. At least that's been my experience. I'm at about the 10 year mark Chris mentioned. And yeah, I suck and have a lot to learn!

I should not have brought it up as Michael the OP didn't want this turning into a tuning thread.

Seat time baby!

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I think it was appropriate to bring up, Brian; it reflects what many are saying--chris, Ray (it was definitely more
straight-forward once, tuning to piano, which the OP doesn't have). It's not likely this will turn into a tuning pissour.
Tuning is no longer regarded as evil on the forum, just, oh, passe.

A forum search 'equal temperament' yielded this:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=277054&highlight=equal+temperament
It's possible in a brief reading someone will mention your answer.

Michael, you may not have read the Tuning Armageddon, but it's a thoughtful discussion, and in many cases says
what several have said here, through the hand and the ear, seat time. http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007821.html
There are some brilliant musicians discussing where to find yourself in the matter. Buddy Emmons chimes in.
"As equal as the physics of the guitar will allow."

Another approach can be found here, concerning meantone tuning, a compromise of sorts,
a less critical baseline tuning from which to vary to your taste, and that would be your temperament.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=276287&highlight=meantone+tuning

Once done, you can continue with what Chris suggests (and as a tuner I recommend) to tune it as little as possible;
at some point the temperament will be in your head; " hearing pitch with your ears and not with your eyes.
now i rarely tune unless i absolutely have to. there is alot of room for fluctuation ."
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

My advice would be to get a recording of the band playing without any Steel.
Then play along at home on your own time, and tweak your tuning until you are in tune with the band, using all your regularly used pedal/lever combo's.
That is now your new tuning chart.
Also, Make sure the band is tuned to matched tuners.
If they are tuning to separate tuners, daisy chain them together, play a note, and see if they are all the same.

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

Mike-
Is there an electronic keyboard in the band?
If so, you can reasonably assume the keyboard IS in tune @ A=440.
Now the other guitars, & bass, are THEY in tune, and to what? A tuner @ 440? Each other? Even tuners can be out of tune to each other. AND when you play back a recording of a band in a crowded setting all kinds of things can effect the recorded sound. You can get wierd doppler effects from mic placements as the folks move in the room and the sounds just change.
There are so many factors at work here.
Bout 2 weeks ago I had some folks over and we where just playing & this fella recorded it with a little zoom .
Well I thought the whole time my intonation was way off.
Guess what, when I listened to the recording, I sounded pretty much spot on.
The ears play tricks.Use your own trial & error to find the temprement that works for you and run with it! Smile

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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Playing in tune has way more to do with hearing and pitch perception than how you tune.

I made this system of improving perception a while ago. It might help.

http://www.bobhoffnar.net/intonation.html
_________________
Bob

Glenn Demichele · From: (20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA

I agree with everything said, and have two more observations. I always record myself to hear what I really sound like. I've got a Peterson, and these days tune ET. I found that when playing more than 1 note (esp 3), my brain would "zoom in" to one note in the chord, and use that as the tuning reference. Using a sweetened tuning, I sounded flat, good or sharp depending on which note my brain chose, and which position I was playing in. I'm better at hearing the whole chord now, but tuning ET does help with my band.
The second thing I noticed when listening to my recordings is that my tuning goes out the window after about only half a beer - that was a surprise - I don't feel a thing.
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