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Topic: Sol Hoopii tunings |
James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 8:49 am |
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Calling Mike Neer...
I realize this topic has been visited many times in past. Consensus seems to be, Sol mostly used this C#- tuning (low to high): E B E G# C# E. However, in trying to work out some of his recorded songs, it seems to me on occasion he has 3rd intervals between adjacent lower strings.
According to some sources I've read, he did use high bass A tuning early on. The C#- tuning easily derived from that would be (low to high) B D E G# C# E. I've seen this tuning cited, and disputed (as one of Sol's), elsewhere. I don't have appropriate strings on hand to try it out at the moment.
So, for example, the version of Hula Blues found on vol. 2 of Rounder's Hoopii reissues (identified as a 1934 recording in the notes, but as 1933 in the track listing), does not seem entirely playable with the E B E G# C# E tuning.
It is comfortably playable in the F#9 tuning: F# A# E G# C# E, associated with Dick McIntire. Is that one Sol Is known to have used? |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 2:30 pm
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i'm not going to answer for Mike - but i have found you can't entirely go by "this steel player used this tuning" kind of mentality because most of these early guys played the tuning that worked best for that tune. could be A major? - those are the low thirds you are hearing
High A
E C# A E C# A
C#m7
E C# G# E B E
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 4:27 pm
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| Jerome Hawkes wrote: |
i'm not going to answer for Mike - but i have found you can't entirely go by "this steel player used this tuning" kind of mentality because most of these early guys played the tuning that worked best for that tune. could be A major? - those are the low thirds you are hearing
High A
E C# A E C# A
C#m7
E C# G# E B E |
Could be. Or perhaps, as I'd suggested, the other version of C#- with B, D on the bottom strings. Because that C#- is a simple retuning of the high bass A, seems reasonably likely. If my dobro wasn't in the shop I'd capo it and try those two.
But I certainly agree with your 1st point. Surely these guys, back in the day, experimented with a whole range of tunings just as we all do. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 6:38 pm
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This particular version mentioned by James is played in high bass A.
After spending a lot of time carefully trying to recreate a few of Sol's recordings (and I think successfully), I've learned a lot of little tricks and how to detect them. I haven't seen anyone else's transcription of the tune, so I don't know how others hear it.
One of the giveaways is the use of the open A string (3rd string) prominently in the main melody of the tune. Without tabbing the whole melody out, I'll just say that for the little chromatic thing he played over the I chord (F Maj), he used the A string like this:
| Tab: |
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-----4------4------4------4--
---0------0------0------0----
-4------4------4------4------
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His right hand technique, in addition to the lifting of the bar off the strings, was impeccable and made it nearly undetectable.
Also, I can honestly say that I have never heard an example of him using an E13 tuning with the B and D on the bottom. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard it if it does.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 21 Mar 2015 8:57 pm
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Here is a rough little video of how I think Sol played the head of Hula Blues in high bass A. The playing is not very smooth, but I haven't played in this style in ages.
https://youtu.be/uWe46MllHKw
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 6:59 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
Here is a rough little video of how I think Sol played the head of Hula Blues in high bass A. The playing is not very smooth, but I haven't played in this style in ages.
https://youtu.be/uWe46MllHKw |
Gosh, Mike, I was just hoping for a "try it in this tuning". Wonderful of you to take time to film a demo. I can see that it falls more naturally in the high bass A, than my attempted version in F#- (which was just a guess at how Sol might have played it, but it works reasonably well).
Do you have any sense of what percentage of Sol's recordings were done in the high bass A tuning? I think I'd carelessly assumed he'd "evolved" to the C#- at some point and abandoned the high A, not that I had any particular evidence for that assumption. Consequently I've looked to more "advanced" tunings when considering his later work.
Thanks so much for sharing your expertise! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 7:05 am
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I'm no expert in any real sense, but I think that all of his acoustic recordings are in A tuning (I think he used high bass and low bass A) and his electric in C#minor. But I haven't done any kind of scientific study on it.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 7:19 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| I'm no expert in any real sense, but I think that all of his acoustic recordings are in A tuning (I think he used high bass and low bass A) and his electric in C#minor. But I haven't done any kind of scientific study on it. |
That's helpful - I'll keep acoustic v. electric in mind when further exploring. You certainly know more about this style, in a practical sense, than anyone else I've encountered. |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 7:27 am
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This post is great. I've been listening to a lot of tricone music lately and have wondering about the tunnings.
Can anyone explain High Bass, and Low Bass?
Thanks |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 7:45 am
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| Joe Burke wrote: |
This post is great. I've been listening to a lot of tricone music lately and have wondering about the tunnings.
Can anyone explain High Bass, and Low Bass?
Thanks |
High bass A is A C# E A C# E (low to high). Basically Dobro tuning raised a whole step. Low bass A is E A E A C# E. So you can see the top three strings are the same in both, while one has lower bass notes. |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 8:36 am
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| Thanks James! I knew what the tunnings were, just figured the 'High' and 'Low' referred to the root note. I kept looking to see a low A in the 1st string. A little embarrassing to admit. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 5:40 pm
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I hope the love for Sol Hoopii continues forever. There's no overstating his importance to steel guitar. My two first real steel heroes were Sol and Speedy West. Yeah, I liked the crazy, flashy guys, but they could play as beautiful as anyone when they wanted.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 6:52 pm
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| Ingenious, Mike! I had put this one down as being in E as the opening line lays out so well but on closer examination I agree. The tune is still quite playable in E but that move at .11secs from the 6th fret to the 14th is much much further in E tuning and not possible in the time. Also I note on the recording that the high chord is a triad and not a dyad. However I do think that there are plenty of other examples Sol's use of E tuning along with E7 in his acoustic period. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 22 Mar 2015 7:36 pm
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I thought of a few things, Guy, that I'd to share with you.
On the first chromatic opening run, Sol plays a 1/4 tone--actually a real 'blue note'--if you listen very carefully to the recording, he plays 4 notes, the first one being D. The second note is Eb, the third is the blue note (somewhere between Eb and E), and then finally E. It is so perfect, too--could not have been done in a better way.
Secondly, in the vocal verse, Sol plays the F6 chord as:
1
1
0
x
x
x
I think this very well could have been the impetus for his changing the 3rd string to G#, and ultimately the entire tuning. Of course, the sudden availability of dominant chords would have been quite a nice bonus. Anyway, just some speculation. But you did not hear steel players play that 6th chord before that.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 23 Mar 2015 3:30 pm
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Thanks, Mike. I apologise if my previous post was a bit confusing as I was looking at the 1927 instrumental version but your theory seems to stack up well for that version also, which I had assumed was in E tuning.
Your suggestion that the 1934 version is in an A tuning and not C#m is a much bigger call. The semitone dip at the end of the chord figure when the 6th chord first appears behind the vocal seems to confirm C#m is used. At first listen the top three notes appear to dip, A, F and D down to Ab, Db and E. But dropping the open A would be impossible in an A tuning. On closer inspection it sounds as if only the top two notes, F and D, dip, consistent with your theory. The Ab is easy to imagine there. An aural illusion? Anyway, the next three times the figure is repeated there is no semitone dip. The final sixth chord figure at the end of the second verse uses both sustained notes and a semitone dip. I think it is clearer that the A is held in this instance.
Your theory provides an answer to a most puzzling aspect of this recording if it was actually in C#m. That is, why is the intonation of the chord solo between the verses so poor? In C#m tuning the opening 6th chords should be perfectly in tune. How could it be that Sol’s immaculate technique and ear could be off? Additional confirmation is apparent in that the intonation of the higher 6th chords in the first passage of the solo are more accurate than the lower ones, consistent with the nature of ‘fudged’ voicings as they are employed higher on the neck.
The question then arises, did Sol use C#m in any acoustic recording? I don’t think there are any more examples on the 1933-34 Quartette collection. Are there others not reissued? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 23 Mar 2015 5:20 pm
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| Guy Cundell wrote: |
Your theory provides an answer to a most puzzling aspect of this recording if it was actually in C#m. That is, why is the intonation of the chord solo between the verses so poor? In C#m tuning the opening 6th chords should be perfectly in tune. How could it be that Sol’s immaculate technique and ear could be off? Additional confirmation is apparent in that the intonation of the higher 6th chords in the first passage of the solo are more accurate than the lower ones, consistent with the nature of ‘fudged’ voicings as they are employed higher on the neck.
The question then arises, did Sol use C#m in any acoustic recording? I don’t think there are any more examples on the 1933-34 Quartette collection. Are there others not reissued? |
Guy, my guess is that this was probably one of the last sessions Sol played in A tuning. I had to do a bit a searching to confirm this, but the Brunswick matrix lists the date of Hula Blues by Sol Hoopii and his Novelty Quartette as 2/19/1934, and that appears to be the only recording date for 1934. I would posit that he probably took some time to get his thing together on C#min before his next recording date in March of 1935, where he played electric and used C#min tuning.
You can have a look at the Brunswick dates here: http://www.78discography.com/BRN55000.htm
The out of tune chording was also one of the main giveaways as to the tuning, but the real giveaway for me was the previously mentioned open A string in the tab above.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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James Kerr
From:
Scotland, UK
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Former Member
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 3:37 pm
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| NICE! |
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Scott Thomas
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 5:18 pm
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Agreed. James Kerr, you have a real nice feel for that style!
To James, the o.p., you have probably come across this thread in your search, but if not, here is an extensive discussion with contributions from Mike and a discography from me all about when Sol went to the C#m7 tuning:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=113807&highlight=brunswick |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 5:45 pm
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It's good to see that info again, Scott. However, I'm going to go against what I said in that thread and declare that the 1934 Hula Blues is definitively High bass A.
There are a number of details I could use to prove it so, including the little dyad played on strings 5 and 6 (and demonstrated in my clip). Those notes are not playable in C#min tuning.
I believe that the 2/19/34 session was the last for high bass A. Everything else from 1935 on that I've listened to points to C#min7. Thanks for the reminder!
Edit--hold that thought--I see another 2 April sessions on the list. Will have to find those. Does anyone have an mp3 of Akaka Falls from the 2/19/34 session?
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 6:00 pm
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OK, I've listened to Akaka Falls from the same session and his tricone is tuned to high bass A. He plays a 1-3-5 triad (F major) at 0:21 that really could only be played that cleanly in that tuning.
I've also listened to The Lei Vendor and King Kamehameha from April 1934 and they are also in high bass A. I have zero doubt.
I love this stuff!
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Scott Thomas
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 8:53 pm
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| So Mike if I'm understanding you right, that could indeed make Sol Bright's "La Rosita" of 3/9/34 the first recording in C#min? |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 24 Mar 2015 9:12 pm
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A few more observations/speculations to throw into the mix concerning the 1933-34 compilation.
I Want Someone To Love me uses the same F6 fudge as in Hula Blues as the last chord.
Don't Stop Loving Me uses the same chording but fretted up the octave in the last bars. The notes, F, out of tune D and A are sounded over G, C and F chords providing the following chord tones.
G....... 7th, 5th, 9th
C....... 11th, 9th, 5th
F........ root,, 6th, 3rd
I think It's Hard To Say Goodbye is in G tuning. Note the open D string at 2.24 combined with the final chord gliss of 1, 3 and 5.
I would also call G tuning for Lady Be Good. That third bar uses open strings in a very innovative way.
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Mar 2015 5:26 am
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| Scott Thomas wrote: |
| So Mike if I'm understanding you right, that could indeed make Sol Bright's "La Rosita" of 3/9/34 the first recording in C#min? |
Scott, in looking at the dates and listening to all of Sol Hoopii's recordings over the same period, I can say that it is likely true that Sol K. Bright recorded a C#min tuning first, although it is important to make this distinction:
Sol K. Bright's tuning in La Rosita is:
E
C#
G#
E
C#
G#
So, you can see that it is still quite different from Sol Hoopii's C#min7 tuning.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 25 Mar 2015 5:33 am
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| Guy Cundell wrote: |
I would also call G tuning for Lady Be Good. That third bar uses open strings in a very innovative way.
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Guy, I don't mean to disagree, but I don't hear it that way. To my ears, he is playing in A tuning, and the 3rd bar you mentioned was played:
| Tab: |
----10--------------------------------
----10--10----------------------------
-------------10-----------------------
--------10--------10------------------
-------------10-----------------------
------------------10------------------
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To further substantiate that, at 0:39 in the bridge when the chord moves to A7, I can clearly hear the open first string E. Check it out and see if you agree.
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