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Topic: Charlie Christian PU users, please opine |
Jim Rossen
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 5:06 am |
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You who play laps with Charlie Christian style single coil blade pickups- what do you think about them? How do they compare to other pickups in common use? Some Speakeasy guitars come with them.
Thanks
Jim |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 9:02 am
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I owned a Gibson EH-150 with the Charlie Christian pickup. Great tone, but very noisy, especially around fluorescent lighting.
No experience with the Speakeasy guitar pickups myself, though.
_________________
Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 10:14 am
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I opted not for the CC Pup for the particular type of Speakeasy I ordered. Due to the type of wood. The maker Ron helped with the decision.
That said, I've always wanted to order another with the CC. Just out of curiosity for the difference in tone. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 11:43 am
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just because it looks similar to a REAL gibson CC pick....it is not.
the only pickup that sounds like a CC is a for real one from gibson or an exact copy using the cobalt magnets.
i looked at the speakeasy guitars and the faux CC pickup. it is nothing like the original, so you can forget that if you want that sound. thats not to say you might not like the sound, its just not the read deal and cannot sound like that.
i wanted the gibson CC pickup for many years. i finally got an original 1936 Gibson ES150 which was the first model electric archtop they made using that pickup. it sounded fabulous in the studio, but i could not take it out on a gig. the situation in the 30s lighting and electrics in buildings was way different than today. that pickup was so noisy that i just finally sold that instrument. i also had the gibson es175CC. sold it too.
so if you dont have the two big cobalt mags in the body of the guitar with the 3 adjustment screws, you dont have the real sound. all these clones with the little alnico or ceramic mags right on the bobbin....thats just taking advantage of a vintage look. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 2:32 pm
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I made a bunch of ES (smaller) and EH (larger) hardened steel magnets for Jason Lollar ... Back in 2004 ...
He was working with Duke Robillard to produce CC pickups ... During the period when he was working with Gerry Beaudoin and J. Geils on the New Guitar Summit project.
Duke used original CC and Jason's on that project ... And I remember Jason telling me that he couldn't tell which was which on playback ...
He used 38 AWG of course ... They were advertised in Guitar Player for awhile ... At the time, they were the most expensive pickups he sold ... Like $100 more than the horseshoes.
Ultimately they proved too $$$ to continue ... I still have some of the ES magnets here somewhere ...
We even made a special unit (I used neodymium-iron-boron to make the big magnets) and gave them to Andy Volk for his EH150 .. I called them "Ultra Christians"  |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 6:17 pm
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But wait a minute, didn't Gibson use a different type of magnet, the so-called U magnet, for CC pickups in the late '30s/early '40s? Are those also "faux" CCs?
While I've never pulled it out to examine it, I believe that's the type on my EH-185. I've owned two EH-150s with the large bar magnet CC pickups, and I'd say the difference in tone of the 185 is not something I'd attribute to the pickup magnets, but rather to the different construction of the instrument. Sounds equally awesome and in fact I prefer it to the 150s.
I've played the current production Lollar CC pickups in a Telecaster and they sounded great, faux as they may be. Can't say on that basis how they'd sound in a lap steel compared to vintage Gibson. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 6:20 pm
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| Rick Aiello wrote: |
Duke used original CC and Jason's on that project ... And I remember Jason telling me that he couldn't tell which was which on playback ...
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do you have any sound samples of these recordings? if so, you could post them and we could have a listening thingy and try to pick out the real from the new.
edit. i went to youtube and looked for some audio/video for that project. found this. the guy on the right sounds more like a real CC than the guy on the left. when you listen to the CC pickup notice that when you play it harder, it does not gag out and distort...it just gets bigger sounding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QffhmQrN4aI
and another edit. hank garland playing the CC pickup. that pic on the screen is not what he is playing. anyway. listen to the pick attack...when he plays in the lower register a grouping of strings how the clarity is there. and the upper register is just bright and crystal clear. when he digs in, it gets louder not distorted. these are the only pickups that sound like this. the new crop of look alike stuff is not even in the same ballpark.
now having said that, danny gatton said that his work with joe barden in coming up with a neck pickup for the tele was all based on trying to get the CC sound. gatton found one in a music store and mounted it in a tele. he would know. he claimed the barden got him as close as anything new did.
interesting info shared here.
Last edited by Bill Hatcher on 4 Mar 2015 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 6:46 pm
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Could a person sheild the electronics in such a way as to get rid of the noise?
I have done some sheilding on a few instruments that came out dead-quiet. One was an old Japanese gold-foil p'up which are pretty noisy, I think.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 7:00 pm
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that is interesting bill - i could certainly hear what you are talking about.
i know back when i played tele, most guitar players could not tame the bardens, they were hip because of gatton, but most i heard play them couldn't control them tonally. i always thought they were glorious pickups, but i played mainly clean at normal volume.
i never really dug kessels sound - i liked his playing a lot though. i think he used those really heavy flat wounds
Hank Garland, however, was my man - loved that cat. first 'real' jazz guitar record i ever got was Jazz Winds - that blew my teenage mind...fed a heavy dose of commercial radio mindless dribble. i always thought he was playing a Byrdland on JW, despite the pic on the cover.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II
Last edited by Jerome Hawkes on 4 Mar 2015 7:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 7:01 pm
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As I remember it ... The switching between the guitars was done by Duke during the recording session ....
I do remember ... Duke would send the various units back and forth ... Until he was happy with Lollar's tweaks ...
As far as my part ... had original magnets here and the ones I made were spot on ... In terms of flux density and field shape ...
I've remagged a bunch of originals over the years .... Both ES and EH ... And like Ricky's ... They would come in in various states of demagnetization ... |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 7:09 pm
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interesting the loss of magnet strength over this much time. is that just a function of the cobalt steel mags? you figure some of these are 75 years old....if the mags natural life is say 100 or even 200 years, there is a lot of loss.
it would be interesting to hear a sample of the original CC pickup with the 38 ga wire with a set of alnico mags the same size and strength to really determine the part that the magnets play in the sound. |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 7:23 pm
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Remember, there are two distinctly different kinds of original Gibson Charlie Christian pickups. Not all had the five inch long magnets that extended toward the neck of the guitar. But the Charlie Christian copies are not much like the originals. Some are just like so many of the replica pickups today, such as Bigsby replicas -- just P-90 style pickups or Fender style single coils with replica cosmetics.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 4 Mar 2015 8:18 pm
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| I have the CC Vintage Vibe version in a cheap archtop and in a Mexican Telecaster and love them. Nice clear bottom, no mud, and decent usable single coil tone. Yeah I get it, not like the original. Who cares. Its a fun alternative to usual. I really like mine. They will twang and chunk real nice. I just ordered one for neck position for a Melody Maker that has P90 in bridge. Gonna pair it up with CC copy. Sound great and look cool. For the money I am quite happy with Pete Biltoft Vintage Vibe pups. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 4:41 am
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As primarily a "magnet guy" working with originals, repros and designing new assemblies ... I've had just about everything through here
You mention Bigsbys ... Todd Clinesmith sent me a huge box of original PA magnets, each individually wrapped in the newspaper of the day ... And I remagnetized every single one (and there was a $£!+load of them) 
I understand how many players and pickup guys "'cling" to the notion that the only way to get the "original" sound/tone/response from a classic pickup is to use only the original materials ... Original magnet wire insulation, original blade iron/steel composition, etc ...
The funny thing ... The cobalt steel that was saturated and placed in new guitars of the day ... Bares little resemblance to those same units in the same guitars today ... That's fact.
I chuckle when folks say that they are worried that after a remag .... The tone will change ... My response is always " hell yes" ... It'll sound the way it did when Charlie Christian and Dick McIntire played their guitars in their era.
In defense of Jason, Pete and others who do it very well" ... What's important in terms of magnetism in pickups is the flux densities and field distribution ... Not the generating material.
Alnico, ferrite, etc magnets can be made (degaussed, tweaked, etc) to replicate the fields produced by any of the primitive materials.
It's not always easy ... Requires some pretty expensive equipment ... But the guys who do it well, just don't get stock alnico, ferrite, etc ... And slap them on their units ... ...
Any "vintage" magnet assembly can be replicated using "modern" ( superior) materials ... It just takes a lot of R&D , $$$, and skill ...
Like with spys ... It's called "tradecraft" ...  |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 6:00 am
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| Quote: |
| We even made a special unit (I used neodymium-iron-boron to make the big magnets) and gave them to Andy Volk for his EH150 .. I called them "Ultra Christians" |
I so appreciated the opportunity to have them! The CC Lollar/Aiello pickup/magnet combo had great tone and response but the pickup was uneven across the strings and the controls were kind of stiff and sticky so I eventually sold the guitar to sweeten the deal when I bought my Asher.
In general, the CC pickup is widely considered once of the most colorful pickups. It was a cornerstone in Barney Kessel's sound as mentioned above. The Barden's are a great noise-canceling modern version. There was a company in England making them a few years back to the exact original specs. The website is still up though I don't know if the products are still available. http://www.ccpickups.co.uk
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Jim Rossen
From:
Iowa, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:02 am
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I still seek opinions regarding the currently available "CC style" blade single coil PUs when used in non pedal steel guitars.
The goal is to get my Excel S8 console to sound something like my Clinesmith Joaquin. I have communicated with Todd C about this.
The Excel has a PU pocket that is-
W 3.69 in
L 1.56 in
D .50 in
String distance is 2.75 in.
Vintage Vibe will make a custom CC style PU that will fit.
Thanks
Jim |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 7:40 am
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| Vintage Vibes by my understanding are more like a P-90 with a blade. Lollars are supposed to be closer to real CC's and alot of guys really dig TK Smith's version but I don't believe its a true CC. TK and Lollar do use the heavier wire though which Bilhoft (VV) doesn't do. A lot of guys really dig the vintage vibes though so alot of it comes down to how authentic you want it. |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:26 am
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| Rick Aiello wrote: |
| ... I understand how many players and pickup guys "'cling" to the notion that the only way to get the "original" sound/tone/response from a classic pickup is to use only the original materials ... Original magnet wire insulation, original blade iron/steel composition, etc ... |
Same thing really with all the components of an instrument. It can approach an almost cult like status with some. And I understand how it can happen, I mean its really simple. If you want to make Grandma's prize winning blueberry pie, you start with her recipe. The uninformed borderline ADD cook will mill their own flower, hand pick the berries, and wear a vintage blue bonnet for good luck. A good cook will know the ingredients available to them and make educated selections to achieve a result as good if not better than the best of Granny's. Though, there still may be a bonnet involved
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 1:58 pm
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Too add more to the mix, there seems to be a difference from instrument to instrument with the same components....example- I hear tell some folks like the earlier Bigsby sound over the later ones
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https://www.facebook.com/TheBestWesterns |
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James Hartman
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 2:31 pm
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| Mark Roeder wrote: |
| Too add more to the mix, there seems to be a difference from instrument to instrument with the same components....example- I hear tell some folks like the earlier Bigsby sound over the later ones |
Absolutely. Differences in tone between two instruments reflect the totality of each; "same components" can only be a relative sameness. To compare them and say the difference is (primarily) in the pickups is likely an unsupportable conclusion. |
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Todd Clinesmith
From:
Lone Rock Free State Oregon
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Posted 5 Mar 2015 8:52 pm
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| James Hartman wrote: |
| Mark Roeder wrote: |
| Too add more to the mix, there seems to be a difference from instrument to instrument with the same components....example- I hear tell some folks like the earlier Bigsby sound over the later ones |
Absolutely. Differences in tone between two instruments reflect the totality of each; "same components" can only be a relative sameness. To compare them and say the difference is (primarily) in the pickups is likely an unsupportable conclusion. |
Definitely. There is a lot of acoustic tone in the Bigsby guitar, or any guitar for that matter. The pickups are incredible, but the construction, and components have a lot to do with it as well. More than most people think. You can strum a Bigsby unplugged, and it sounds like a Bigsby.
P.A made some slight changes in design in the mid 50's, that I believe affected the tone. My favorite guitars have been from 51 and earlier. They are all good tho. And some better than others...... |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 6 Mar 2015 3:49 pm
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I have a Gibson EH-something..7 string w/the CC pickup. The magnets in this one are huge. Don't wanna drop one on my foot ! 
This guitar has a kinda strange semi-accoustic sound to it.. |
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 7 Mar 2015 10:11 am
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Bill, I have a six string, I really like the sound of the PUs, very sensitive (expressive) to touch
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www.deluxe34.com lap steel stands, Clinesmith, Gibson Console Grande, Northwesterns, The Best Westerns
https://www.facebook.com/TheBestWesterns |
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