String spacing 10 and 12 string pedal steels

Hal Braun · From: Eustis, Florida, USA

I am trying to transition to pedal from non-pedal, and have the Fender 400, which sounds great but is pretty "non standard" by todays modern steel standards.. however it has the same string spacings as the laps..

Which modern pedal steels (10 and 12 string) have the largest string spacings (or conversely.. the smallest) Or, are all of them a "industry standard"?

I do not use finger picks and like that larger spacing.

Thanks!!

Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

Hal, I believe most all steels are 11/32 at the changer end. Maybe one or two will stretch it to 3/8 but I cant think of any . Martin.
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Hal Braun · From: Eustis, Florida, USA

I have heard that MSA 12 strings and some BMI's are more narrow. If there is a guitar that stretches the spacing to 3/8ths, I would love to know about it..

thanks!

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I play both Dobro and PSG 12S uni out and really getting used to the difference in string spacing and scale length are the biggest challenge. Usually takes me a song or two to adapt.
I think if you keep at a narrow string spacing for a while you'll have no problem in the long run.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i think my old professional sho~bud was a little wider spaced than the pp emmons.
??

can't remember fer shure.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

There is a thread to be found where the same question was asked...and a member did up a chart for most major guitar brands identifying string spacing at the changer and at the nut.

Iirc...MSAs were very narrow at the nut compared to most....but most steels were the same at changer...except for a few.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

so show us the chart.

Anders Eriksson · From: Mora, Dalecarlia, Sweden

Here is one.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=158268
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Hal Braun · From: Eustis, Florida, USA

awesome.. thanks.

I did a search, as I always do, but did not find this..

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Thanks, Anders, for posting that link. Good to have confirmation from no less an authority than Reece Anderson.

It does throw up one point, though. One or two of the contributors seem troubled by the different spacing at nut and bridge, believing that this somehow compromises the intonation. There is even a proposal that the strings should always be parallel! Not so. If you have a bunch of random lines (imagine you dropped a handful of straws) then a set of three parallel ones (e.g. nut, bar, bridge) will divide each of the bunch in the same ratio.

Here is a more formal illustration - look for Thales' theorem at the bottom of the page (Fig. 16).

http://www.bymath.com/studyguide/geo/sec/geo4.htm

Thales (Î˜Î±Î»á¿†Ï‚) spotted this around 600 B.C. and it hasn't changed.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The PP Emmons had closer spacing on the 12 string models than they had on the 10 string models.

Hank Corwin had a custom Emmons D-10 PP built with the closer 12 string spacing. Hank had short fingers and he speculated that the closer spacing would help him. I played his Blue D-10, the day he got it in 1972, with the closer spacing but didn't really notice any difference.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

The Fender pedal steels that were built by Sho~Bud, had the widest string spacing at the nut of any 10 string guitar I have had. Wider than an Emmons, or Sho~Bud. I loved that wide string spacing. Jerry

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

The experienced non-pedal guys will argue for equal string spacing at nut and bridge to make bar slant angle a little more predictable. It's tough enough compensating for shrinking fret spacing as you go up the neck. Narrow spacing at the nut really makes an accurate slant down there challenging.
This is something that never occurred to me until I spoke with the great Billy Robinson to give credit to whom credit is due.
Of course how often do you do a bar slant on a PSG.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I've owned both 10- and 12-string Emmons push-pull guitars and they were the SAME STRING SPACING. It may be an optical illusion that the 12's are closer BUT THEY AREN'T.

I confirmed this with Mike Cass who said push-pull changers are spaced 0.344 on center and the 10s and 12s use the same fingers. A 12-string just has two more changer fingers.

Not sure what Hank Corwin had, Jack. May have been closer spacing custom made for him but, from what Dr. Mike says, is not because it was a finger for a 12-string guitar.

I also play Fessenden guitars and am pretty sure they use the same fingers on 10 and 12-strings, therefore would be the same spacing. It would be substantially more expensive to make a 12-string with different string spacing, but Emmons and Fessy are the ones I'm familiar with.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

My D-12 Emmons also has the same .344" spacing. FYI, Dekley 12 strings were shipped with a little narrower spacing by using thinner Delrin or nylon washers. When I disassembled and cleaned my changers several years ago, I rearranged the washers to get back to the standard spacing.
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-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

All I know is what Hank Corwin told me about having the 10 string built with closer "12 string" spacing. That was in early 1972.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I just measured my S-10 and my S-12 String Emmons.... and the spacing is indeed the same.

Peter Johannisse · From: Spijkenisse, The Netherlands

String spacing
Emmons changer nut
#104 S12 0.314" 0.254"
#122ST12 0.344" 0.276"
#193 S12 0.344" 0.276"

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

That's strange, Peter

All mine have been single 12s on D12 frames (ST12)

I own # 101 ST12
It has 0.344 spacing (11/32" from center of 2 adjacent fingers)

I also own # 124 ST12 and it has the same

I have never disassembled a p/p changer, so I have no clue how thick the spacers are from the factory, but I wonder whether someone has changed out the spacers between the fingers. Otherwise, Emmons may have made some narrower fingers that Mike Cass was not aware of.

STRANGE!

Mike Cass???? Jack Strayhorn???? Anyone have a clue?
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Peter Johannisse · From: Spijkenisse, The Netherlands

Emmons has made a few S12 guitars with narrower string spacing.
Mine is like factory new, never played, never changed anything.
It has a strange 6x4 setup.

Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

Larry, the aluminum spacers for the Emmons changer are .156 thick or 5/32.
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Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Thanks, Martin
So, if a 0.125 spacer were substituted that could explain the difference of 0.030 or so in the spacing. Or maybe there is a narrower p/p changer finger -- I don't think that's very likely.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I was under the impression the spacing at the nut was closer, from what Hank told me. He had to wait a long time to get it as Ron had to machine different 10 string machine head assembly's.

Kristian Stundal · From: Oslo, Norway

Larry! Do you know when your #101 ST12 was made? Is that maybe the first 12 string made, or did they start at #1?

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