MSA Classic D-10 set up Help!

Anthony Dickerson · From: Richmond, Kentucky, USA

I just bought a MSA Classic that belonged to a good friend of mine that passed away a couple years ago. He had the E's on the right knee. I have all of the pulls moved where I want them, but I can't get the whole step raise on the first string to work. It'll go up to a G# but about 30 cents flat.

Here are pics of the underside with the pull at rest and engaged. I'm not sure if the fingers just aren't that flexible or if the spring has weakened through the years. I tried to hold the bottom of the finger in place to figure out which it is and the finger tries to twist so I'm afraid to push it too hard.

I was also wondering if there is a way to improve the sustain above the 12th fret. The notes up there don't ring any longer than a second or two at best. Below, the notes ring for days. I can tell a difference in the sustain on my GFI too, but it's not nearly as drastic.

Any suggestions/comments are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Anthony

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I've heard you can't always get that. Try an .011 and stand back.
Still, it could be not enough throw, possible at the pedal.
Round shafts, optimize the angle of the rod.
The fingers shouldn't be flexible.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Edward Rhea · From: Medford Oklahoma, USA

I'm not trying to sound counter-productive, but would'nt it make more sense to use a .13, instead of an .11 or .12? My understanding, is a thinner string requires more travel than a thicker...please correct me if I misunderstood you, Charlie
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Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

From what I can see on the pictures, the 1st string lowering finger is moving together with the raise finger, which it should not do. Either they are sticking together because of dirt/grease or the spring isnt holding the lowering finger in position.
If it was setup for a half step raise you might need move the pull rod further from the cross-shaft to lengthen the pull.

B.Erlandsen

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

If you want to get more raise on a string, shouldn't you be looking at the bell-crank? If it has several holes, try attaching the pull rod to the outer hole to get the longest travel. If it is a shorty with only one position, maybe you can swap it out with another pull that isn't using the outer hole. If you don't have another to swap with, get one of these: http://www.psgparts.com/Pull-4-Hole-200-100-013.htm

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Edward, yes, thank you. I went the wrong way.
Never counter-productive to correct an error.

Continue 'disrupting threads'.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Anthony Dickerson · From: Richmond, Kentucky, USA

Thanks for the replies. I have the 4 hole bell cranks from the link you posted and was actually wondering about finding some to replace one that gave on me. Thanks! The string is the same gauge as are on my GFI. I'm using the farthest hole in the bell crank and there's enough pull to get it there but it won't raise to pitch. It goes a little over half and drops. I've never had to adjust the springs and I hadn't thought about the crud that has built up in the changer holding it. Looks like it's time to dig out the vacuum cleaner! I'll clean it out and see what turns up. If it comes to adjusting the springs, I'll probably be back to get a few pointers.

I really appreciate the input so far.

Anthony

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

as bengt said, the lowering finger probably is pulling after the raise finger does. watch the two from underneath as you move the lever. just the raise side should move. try spraying a little lube in between and maybe tighten the return spring a little and see if it helps.

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Geoff Marshall · From: North Lincolnshire U,K.

Maybe the stop on the axle needs adjusting to allow more travel-but it might need a new spring if a lube and all else fails - Pgs parts have these in stock. After a series of similar scenario's I put a set of adjustable springs on my classic - sorted - happy motoring

Tommy Mc · From: Middlesex VT

I agree with Bob....your MSA should make this change with ease. From your photos, it seems that even "at rest" the springs are slightly forward of the other ones. Is that true or just the camera angle? It seems more than a coincidence that the two springs associated with that lever would be the only weak ones that aren't returning to true. If you back off the tension on the pull rods all the way, will the springs line up with the others?

If I had your steel in front of me, I'd start by cleaning and lubing the changer....also make sure there's no broken string stuck in there. Then I'd back the two pull rods all the way off so there's no tension on them. Hopefully they'll line up with the others. Next, I'd loosen the stop block on the lever and back the positive stop set screw all the way out. Reposition the stop block so it has maximum travel.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

See those wide gaps on the lower return springs??.. Close them up some on each side of the spring on the change thats giving problems, and get back to us...
Your return springs look tired,,, bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

good advice. won't cost a cent and may fix the problem.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

I had same problem with an MSA I once owned and found that the MSA changers are sorta tricky and on a raise or lower, the other part of the changer will actuate causing your problem. You just have to find the correct hole for the pull rod in the changer and then will work fine. And yes, the bigger the string, the less pull to bring to pitch.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Anthony Dickerson · From: Richmond, Kentucky, USA

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll give them a spin when I get home and let you know how it turns out. I've never oiled a changer, what kind of oil is recommended and how do you apply it? I'm assuming WD-40 doesnt fit the bill.

Anthony

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

WD 40 is ok to free stuff up, and get things working, and get some of the crap out.. However, I would let it drip onto some newspaper, while working all the pedals and levers,, wipe as much off as you can after a while, and then apply plain old ATF, or some light machine oil, gun oil, sewing machine oil, or even plain old motor oil.. They all work fine.. WD is fine to get things going , but clean it out and use something that won't gum up.. ATF is all i have used for over 38 years, never a problem... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Michael Yahl makes an adjustable spring assembly for these older Classics. That makes it much easier to balance everything out, and achieve the best action on the lowers.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Anthony Dickerson · From: Richmond, Kentucky, USA

So after taking the spring loose to check the tension (like to have never got it back on so I'm assuming it's in good shape), giving it a bath in the equivalent of WD-40 (Aerokroil) and giving it a solid work out, I attempted to move the pull rod to the top hole. The top hole in the body and on the finger don't line up. It's off about half the width of the hole. Using the top hole is out of the question unless there's a way to change the position of the finger. Any other ideas? I can't help but feel like the problem is in the changer instead of with the springs. I can hold the lowering finger with pliers until the bell crank slips on the rod but it still won't raise any farther. Could the misalignment between the body and the finger have anything to do with it acting up?

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

This sounds really weird. That pull on the first string shouldnt be trouble at all. A picture of the changer where the nylon tuners are would help in order to figure what cause the problem.
When the raise finger moves, the lowering finger w the spring should stay in contact w the stop-plate that is fastened w 2 screws shown on picture.
When no pedals/levers are beeing used, both the raise and lower finger should be at rest on the same stop-plate. If not, then some nylon tuners may have been overtuned due to not enough travel on the pedal or lever. The 3rd string raise seems not to be resting properly at the stop plate altho I cant be 100% sure from what the picture is showing.

B.Erlandsen

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

There were some earlier Classic changers that would not allow this first string raise. The later Classics had a slightly modified scissor that would allow it. Here is a picture of the earlier style, notice there is no notch behind the tab with the holes for the raises. (This picture was taken to show the third raise/lower adapter, it's not mine, I borrowed it.)

Here is the later style that had a notch to allow the raise finger to travel farther. I have modified a couple of older changers that would not allow the full step on #1, to the newer style, which eliminated the problem. I added the notch with a narrow, hand held belt sander.

_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Anthony Dickerson · From: Richmond, Kentucky, USA

That makes sense. I could see that happening with mine. I'm not sure exactly what year mine was made, but I believe it to be a 74. It has Bud Carter's signature on the inspection tag. How do I take apart the changer to see if mine is made like the first picture? Are all of them made alike? If so, how do the other strings accommodate a whole string raise? Is it just because the larger gauge string requires less travel?

So the adapter effectively makes it a triple raise, single lower?

Good stuff here. It's challenging me even when I'm not trying to play it!

Anthony

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

The smaller the string, the more travel is required. I think the changers I modified were '74 or '75 models, or maybe a year or two earlier. You may be able to see the fingers from the bottom, if the rods aren't in the way.

The little bracket does exactly as you say. I think this gadget was conceived by Tom Bradshaw, who may still sell them. Michael Yahl probably makes them too.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

cool darvin. that's some new info to me.

anthony, it looks like triple raise one lower the way the doohickey is installed. it looks as if you could make it triple lower one raise by flipping the position of it.

as i recall, sho-bud professionals needed a little notch cut out to enable the 6th string full tone lower.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Thanks for the pictures, Darvin.
There might be another workaround that doesnt require dismantling the changer and make the notch cutout. What is needed is to move the resting stop for the lower finger forward so you get the combined scissor effect when using the raise.

Step 1, make sure there is a decent travel on the knee lever and raise rod on string one, engage and tune the 1st string to G#.
Step 2, release knee lever and string 1 will probably be higher than F#.
Step 3, add another compensating pullrod to the lower finger and use it to bring down the 1st string to F#. This compensating rod is to be secured in some way and not supposed to move at all.
Step 4 engage knee lever and chk if the raise need some readjusting.

B.Erlandsen

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