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Topic: C6- why not raise both high and low C's to C# with pedal 8? |
Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 2:51 am |
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| Just curious why most players don't raise both the high and low C's on the C6 neck with pedal 8. The high C raise is usually on a separate lever. It seems like if you are raising the C you are going for an A7 chord so why not have that over the whole neck? I'm thinking about a simple C6 copedent with the minimum of pedals and levers. I'm going to have D on top so I'd like to have the major chord voicing three frets up from the root. Is there any advantage to having the raises on separate pedals/levers that I am overlooking? |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 5:48 am
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| How about on a knee. |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 6:10 am C-6 Change
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I think the reason is to get an A7 with a raised 9 chord. Some call it the 'Hold it Chord' or the 'Foxy Lady' chord. I use that chord plus I raise both C notes to #C on a separate lever.
_________________
Emmons D-10, ST-10,LD-10 III, NV-112,Fender Deluxe Reverb. Authorized wholesale dealer musicorp.com! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 7:21 am
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| fwiw, If you have it rodded up, you can dial it in or out at the end-plate-tuner as you need it. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 8:16 am
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Putting the high C# on pedal 8 also kills the 13b9 chord that is used all over the place in all genres of music!
Here's a quick tutorial I did on the C to C# knee lever:
http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Tab/Tab13.html |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 9:37 am
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Greg, your tutorial is really useful and interesting - but in your second parapraph of text you refer to "the old C6 tuning with a "C" on top". Could that be a typo for "G"?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 11:12 am
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| Type indeed! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2015 3:06 pm
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It's very common use the C>B lever to make the A9 chord with P8. You couldn't do that if P8 raised it to C#.
The high C>C# lever by itself is sometimes used with the A>Bb to make C7b9. You can't do that if you're also raising the middle C.
In general, pedals and levers that do less are more versatile than those that have 3 or 4 changes on them.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2015 1:56 am
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| Thanks guys! I figured I was overlooking a thing or two. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 22 Jan 2015 10:23 am
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| b0b wrote: |
..........
In general, pedals and levers that do less are more versatile than those that have 3 or 4 changes on them. |
That way of looking at things is a real key to understanding the instrument.
Great statement !
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Bob |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 22 Jan 2015 10:27 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
..........
In general, pedals and levers that do less are more versatile than those that have 3 or 4 changes on them. |
That way of looking at things is a real key to understanding the instrument.
Great statement ! |
Agreed!  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 1:49 am
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Yes, but conversely, although we can argue about what the limit is, there is room for only a maximum number of levers and pedals. So the art of design is in combining the changes.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2015 5:15 am
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The mileage one gets out of any tuning is more related to the player's creativity than the tuning. Pete Drake did marvelous things with a non standard C6 tuning as did many other recording geniuses. Many of us want to copy our favorite player's riffs and that leads us to certain required pedal changes. Modifying the 8th pedal setup adds some features and takes away others. It's just important to understand what you may lose and what cool new sounds you gain by changing it.
I've added the D to D# change on pedal 8. Very handy and acts much like the E9th F# to G knee lever while not interfering with the older more established changes. |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 8:14 am
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Good point, Greg - and also a decent argument for (at least on a fairly modern all-pull) adding rods and bellcranks for changes that one might not use all the time, but can be tuned in and out as you need them. So Matthew could add the rod for the high C-to-C# change and tune it in when he wants it, and back it out for the more "standard" P8 uses, including lowering to B on the knee lever.
The lever-to-changes ratio/balance is one reason I have two RKLs and a two-position switchable vertical (still working on the final version of that, but what I have now works for the time being). It adds flexibility without boxing me in too much (I couldn't physically manage something like a Crawford cluster). And it's also true that you can get a whole lot more than you probably think with just the simple "basic" changes if you apply some thought and perseverance. Food for thought.... |
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Matthew Dawson
From:
Portland Oregon, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 10:03 am
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| For clarification, I'm thinking about a simple C6 copedent for a Clinesmith 8-string with the Bigsby changer. That means cables and pulleys as well as the limitation of not being able to have a raise and lower on the same string. Thanks to this thread I've been finding all kinds of uses for the the #9 chord! |
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Jack Aldrich
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 4:55 pm
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What I did was to put the C->C# raise on pedal E (or 4). I moved the normal 4th pedal changes to my RKL. The 4th and 5th pedal thus give me an A6 chord with a C# on top. At the 3rd fret, you have a C6 with an E on top, AND the first inversion of the C chord, similar to the A and LKL on the E9 neck. Works like a charm!
_________________
Jack Aldrich
Carter & ShoBud D10's
D8 & T8 Stringmaster
Rickenbacher B6
3 Resonator guitars
Asher Alan Akaka Special SN 6
Canopus D8 |
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Paul Hoaglin
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Posted 24 Jan 2015 9:56 pm
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| Matthew Dawson wrote: |
| For clarification, I'm thinking about a simple C6 copedent for a Clinesmith 8-string with the Bigsby changer. That means cables and pulleys as well as the limitation of not being able to have a raise and lower on the same string. Thanks to this thread I've been finding all kinds of uses for the the #9 chord! |
Since you have that limitation of not being able to raise and lower the same string, I'd think that either the P7 change or the lower to B would most likely take precedence over the C to C# change. Definitely a case of finding the value in the limits of the instrument - good luck! It sounds like a very interesting project.... |
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