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Topic: strange pedal beahvior: is this normal? |
Damiano Missiroli
From:
Italy
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 6:46 am |
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hi, i'm a complete newbie and i have a new pedal steel.
when i press pedal A, string six goes down a little, let say 4-5 cent of halftone.
this happens on other strings/pedals. Is this normal?
thanks in advance |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 6:59 am
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Sounds to me like you are experiencing cabinet drop. Most all steels have around 2 cents drop. What is steel brand?
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Damiano Missiroli
From:
Italy
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 7:17 am
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| hi, Henry, thanks for the reply, the psg is a WBS basic S10.....i wasn't aware of cabinet drop. So it's a pretty common situation? no need to worry about that? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 7:54 am
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Damiano, it's fairly common, but not universal. One probable cause is pushing the pedals firmly, like beyond the stop. Then the force starts pulling the cabinet.
A wound 6th string will do this less.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 11:41 am
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Damiano, cabinet drop is caused by the pedals applying pressure to the cabinet which in turn causes the strings to go slightly flat. You can do the same thing by just pressing in middle of cabinet with you hand. Some steels have more or less than others. As Lane said, too much pressure after pedal has hit stop can cause an excess of it. As you progress in your playing, you will start to feel just where stops are on pedals and not use as much pressure. Changing the string to a wound 6th may have to have some adjustment under guitar if you go that route but since you stated that all strings do it, I would just live with it. You will learn to compensate with bar or other means as your playing progresses. Good luck my friend in your challenge.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 31 Dec 2014 7:06 pm Strange pedal behavior: Is this normal
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| Damiano, In building a steel guitar light enough to be portable, There is a limit to the stiffness of the body. Like Lane posted, Once the pedal is against the stop it does put stress on the body of the guitar, Which can cause the de-tuning. Work on shoving the pedals till they hit the stop without extra pressure. Good Luck and Happy Steelin. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 12:24 am
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I suspect that my MSA has little cabinet drop because the pedal axles go to the rails rather than the cabinet.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Damiano Missiroli
From:
Italy
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 9:00 am
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thanks everyone for the infos and advices, my psg definitely have some cabinet drop, i've pressed in the center of the body as Henry suggested and intonation goes down 4-5 cents. In the last hours i've practised a little on not to apply extra pressure after pedals reach the stop, and drop is a little better, 2 cents or so.....
i suppose is better to consider cabinet drop when tuning? for example when i tune string five is better to have pedal B pressed?
Damiano |
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Jeff Scott Brown
From:
O'Fallon Missouri, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 10:38 am Re: strange pedal beahvior: is this normal?
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| Damiano Missiroli wrote: |
hi, i'm a complete newbie and i have a new pedal steel.
when i press pedal A, string six goes down a little, let say 4-5 cent of halftone.
this happens on other strings/pedals. Is this normal?
thanks in advance |
If you search for "cabinet drop" here on the forum you will find a lot of relevant discussions. One that I initiated a couple of years ago is at http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=235127. In one of the comments John McClung talks about seeing a 30 cent drop. That seems quite excessive.
The thing can never be 100% in tune in all positions and all keys. Compromise is the name of the game I think. During the first few weeks of playing the thing I was frustrated with the inability to figure out how to make reasonable sounding chords up and down the neck with various pedal/lever combinations. A lot of that improves with technique but having the guitar setup optimally is a big help too. Sweetened tunings are part of that. What works well for me is described at http://tinyurl.com/jeffscopedent. I didn't come up with that, I just found that it works well for me. I think that might be Newman's creation but I am not 100% sure.
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GFI Ultra S10 Keyless
Peavey Nashville 112
Goodrich L120, BJS, Peterson StroboPlus HD |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 12:29 pm
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| Damiano Missiroli wrote: |
i suppose is better to consider cabinet drop when tuning? for example when i tune string five is better to have pedal B pressed?
Damiano |
Not quite THAT combination, but I tune my E to F raises with the A pedal pressed, and I tune the A pedal with the B pedal pressed and vice versa. Tune your often used combinations IN combination.
If you drop 6 to F#, tune it while dropping the Es.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 5:16 am
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| I find on my steel the cabinet drop happens progressively during pressing of the pedal and not particularly when it hits the stop. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 11:29 am
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What kind of guitar? I suspect something is wrong. Tighten all the screws. ALL the screws.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 11:50 am
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No.
Don't tighten all the screws, especially the neck screws, you might choke the vibrations of the instrument.
Tighten the headstock and changer housing screws, but go careful on the neck screws. I've even had steels where tightening of the endplate screws caused a loss in tone.
Snug them up, and play, then tighten them up one at a time, playing after each screw is tightened.
At some point, you may notice a deterioration in the tone, so slacken off the last screw and see if the tone returns.
Not eveyone will agree with me, but these are my observations over many years of steel playing/tinkering. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 12:12 pm
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Good point, Richard. But I do think that cabinet drop early in the pedal throw is either a CHEAP steel like a Little Buddy or something wrong
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 12:21 pm
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Hi Lane,
If you were referring to me, I was generalising about cabinet drop as most, if not all steels have this to some degree. In my case I accept it as such.
My steels are a '74 Push Pull and a Franklin.
I am now a retired Engineer, so at least I am qualified to talk rubbish.
As far as neck screws go, I tried all this years ago when it was a hot topic on here. Buddy advocated it but I found it didn't make a blind bit of difference to my ears.
However that just says I'm not Buddy Emmons. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 12:26 pm
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Tony, I was responding to you. I don't doubt you observe it when you do. But I DO think the cabinet shouldn't flex in mid-stroke.
Maybe Reece and Bud Carter were onto something when they put the cross shafts on rails instead of the aprons.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 12:55 pm
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Take your point Lane, it may indeed be something to do with the changer.
I don't think anyone's come up with a finite reason or solution. If they have, they're keeping it to themselves.
I've just had a thought as I'm writing this,(no, a clean one) - if Emmons came out with the counterforce mechanism, it must mean they weren't able to find a cure or indeed isolate the cause.
Anyone like to comment? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jan 2015 10:43 pm
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| well, they isolated the problem enough to determine that a counterforce mechanism would remedy the problem. |
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