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Topic: All pull retrofit for any guitar |
Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 4:27 pm |
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How about a generic all pull mechanical system that will drop in to any existing guitar cabinet?
Anyone ever tried it?
My thoughts are kind of like a Kline system, based on the idea that some guitars could be made better with a new or improved undercarriage.
I've got some prototype drawings and ideas. Would be interested in visiting with others and getting some opinions? |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 4:57 pm
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| Come on fellers. Sure need input. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 5:27 pm
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Be difficult. Although string spacing is almost standard, axle diameter isn't. So if you reused existing pillow blocks, the axle might not fit.
And a universal pillow block gives problems because mounting methods aren't the same. Sure, MSA fingers (just to pick) might drop into a Maverick, they might not mount up.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 5:41 pm
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Lane, suppose the cabinet had been stripped of all hardware and this system came with its own journals, rails etc that literally just drop in.
The only measurements needed would width, length and changer depth relative to the cabinet base inside.
Then it would come as a "kit"
Example-I found a pro II sho bud one time that had been gutted. But still had changers pedal board, legs and pedals. Just no mechanics.
I've seen other guitars that would have been good candidates for a retrofit like this
Appreciate your input
Bill |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 6:03 pm
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Even if the big hole was a standard size (and they're close), the holes for the screws holding the pillow blocks aren't in standard sizes and places.
THAT'S the sticking point.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 6:56 pm Re: All pull retrofit for any guitar
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| Bill C. Buntin wrote: |
| ...I've got some prototype drawings and ideas. Would be interested in visiting with others and getting some opinions? |
If you ever try it, be sure to post some pictures. It sounds interesting. I've often thought of taking the mechanism from a cheap pedal steel, such as the Carter Starter, which has a very good mechanism for its price, and building a guitar around it. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 6:59 pm
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yea..nothing between brands is necessarily universal or uniform enough. kits would have to be offered in too many variations.
unless each kit had it's own merkaba to adjust to the appropriate dimensions. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 7:21 pm
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| I'm curious...have you any thoughts about the pricing? I think the basic idea is great, but that it would be hard to make it cost-practical. Compatibility issues aside, if you included a changer and just the under-the-guitar items (pull rods, cross rods, levers, and pullers), a kit like this might easily cost $500-$600 for a single, and $800-$1,000 for a double. That's a lot of money for a player to sink into what is, in all likelihood, a cheaply made (one-piece finger) instrument. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 7:25 pm
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Perhaps if you just made it in the common axle bores, and expected people to reuse their own pillow blocks and axles. That way you could get closer to a standard.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 2 Jan 2015 10:35 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...a kit like this might easily cost $500-$600 for a single, and $800-$1,000 for a double... |
...for which price you could buy a used Carter Starter and have a lot of parts left over for later use.  |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 2 Jan 2015 11:04 am Re: All pull retrofit for any guitar
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| Bill C. Buntin wrote: |
| ...I've got some prototype drawings and ideas. Would be interested in visiting with others and getting some opinions? |
If you ever try it, be sure to post some pictures. It sounds interesting. I've often thought of taking the mechanism from a cheap pedal steel, such as the Carter Starter, which has a very good mechanism for its price, and building a guitar around it. |
I thought about this too. I bought another guitar  There appears to be nothing wrong with the changer ( other than that plate you'd have to cut slots in to add pulls other than the stock pulls ) , but the bellcrank attachment method is by bending the pull rods - you get one shot. It might be possible to design an "upgrade" kit for the levers/pedals for a Starter, but 1) it's not been done and 2) parts cost alone would probably push the price of the guitar plus the upgrade into where you could buy a different, modest all-pull. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 2 Jan 2015 12:50 pm
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Consider this: The idea came about several years ago when I refurbished a ZB Custom prototype. It had an early version of round cross shafts and bell cranks. The guitar cabinet was immaculate flamed maple. It sounded really good. During the process I had to build a replacement changer to match one of the originals. Zane Beck was a genius in the simplicity of the design of his changer, although very hard to work on and make changes to.
The guitar was a beauty. Steve Takacs bought the guitar. Steve later told me he found another ZB Custom that had been converted to a Kline system of mechanics.
Steve and I talked at length about this and it started a new set of wheels turning.
Once you have the dimensions to work with, say for a D10 ZB, or such as the old Sho Bud I mentioned, then determinations can be made as to what modern all pull changer would fit.
All this assuming the keyhead and neck still in decent shape.
IN the case of the ZB, I visualized a drop in system for the undercarriage and then routing the changer bays to accommodate either a MSA, MCI or some such other triple / triple changer.
I'm in the process of gathering data on changer dimensions of some of the usually available spare changers, then comparing those dimensions to known cabinet dimensions. Once that data is all gathered, then I can determine what combinations will work.
The drop in mechanics are essentially two rails, one for each apron. The shafts and bell cranks/ knee levers and such.
The worst show stopper would be the pillar blocks and axles as Lane pointed out.
Still, if you found the right combination, I think it could be a cost effective method of making yourself a really nice playing guitar for much less than the cost of a new steel.
Also, it could evolve into DIY kits where a person could purchase all the components and assemble their own guitar.
By comparison, I know that Duane Marrs was doing those Sho Bud conversions for about $1500 for a D10. In my case, I was going to have a Sho Bud Pro III done, but sold out before I got it completed. I think I had $1400 in the guitar and thought it would be a guitar well worth $3k once the Marrs conversion was done.
BTW that D10 Marrs that Damir has for sale would be a Great example of what I'm after. Its reasonable priced, and it would be difficult to build what I'm suggesting and compete with a guitar of that quality.
I'm probably chasing a "reinvention of the wheel" concept?? LOL.
Keep the input coming. Its what I need to keep the wheels turning.
Thanks
Bill |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 5:31 am
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| Bill C. Buntin wrote: |
Also, it could evolve into DIY kits where a person could purchase all the components and assemble their own guitar.
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That would seem to be the end result, or a mechanism that you would clad in wood (or anything, possibly).
A kit has always appealed to me, but I wouldn't dream of having it come out like a Kline or ZB.
I did what mods I could on a Carter Starter.
If you could achieve what is needed for $100 parts and labor, it would be a good deal, but one you would pass on.
I can't imagine taking a beautiful body and dropping in
a one-size-fits-all mechanism.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 10:34 am
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| To me the ideal system would include the yoke type bell crank as Kline and ZB,,,,and rails that are anchored only at ends,,,(or floating top/neck, as Anapeg),,,to eliminate any possibility of cabinet drop. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 11:18 am
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This is good input.
I do not think it would be possible to have a "one size fits all" drop in system. But I do think that a common system could be adapted to fit most any cabinet.
The flat bar ZB customs I have seen are very different, but again, Zane Beck was I think a genius in his own right. Once you disassemble one of his changers you realize how practical the thing is or was, but you realize its' limitations in comparison to an all pull triple raise and lower etc.
This information for me is in the spirit of knowing and understanding everything that we like and dislike about our equipment.
The ZB with cross shafts and bell cranks that I worked on and sold to Steve was an awesome sounding guitar. I have always wondering if its' mechanics had been replaced with something a bit easier to work on, then would it still sound like it did?
I think there is a point where you cannot improve upon something. I do not think that we are at that point yet with all pull pedal guitars.
I do think that Ron Lashley was close with the SKH Legrande Emmons. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 11:54 am
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| The beauty of the ZB is that the changer fingers bottomed out on the endplate (and the rest of the pull train can be a plumbers nightmare for all the difference that it makes), that's what gives the classic ZB tone, and that was the genius of Zane Beck |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 11:59 am
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| Charlie McDonald wrote: |
...I did what mods I could on a Carter Starter.
If you could achieve what is needed for $100 parts and labor, it would be a good deal, but one you would pass on... |
Me too. I changed the pedals for Emmons, lengthened the legs and rods, moved the knee levers to the right, and fitted a GeorgeL pickup. Then I gave up. It was like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The pedal rack needs to be completely rebuilt. It bends as you work the pedals, and I hate that Formica body. But the mechanism is pretty good for the price, and it stays in tune, which some of my more-expensive pedal steels don't. Yes, it's confined to E9 Nashville copedant with three pedals, but that doesn't bother me too much as I have other instruments I can use if I want more pedals. But it just doesn't sound the way I want it to sound. I'm thinking of converting it to a PedaBro and building a resonator into a new body.
My day-to-day instrument is a Fender/Sho-Bud Pedal Steel, which has the same set up as the Carter, but the difference in sound is like day and night. I also have a Sho-Bud Crossover permanently set up. It has an abundance of pedals, but only one knee-lever, but you can't beat the tone, especially on the C6 neck.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Jan 2015 1:15 pm
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As far as I know, you can't buy a general-purpose automobile engine that drops into any vehicle, which might be a clue.
The Kline-type changer is easy to make and sounds great, but the endplate is an integral part and would be difficult to adapt.
My instinct also tells me that an instrument is usually designed all of a piece, whether it's cheap or expensive. And if you try to upgrade part of it you'll expose weaknesses elsewhere, as Alan seems to have demonstrated.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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