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Topic: Intonation problems with electric only!! |
Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2014 1:18 pm |
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I can play perfectly in tune on acoustic steels. But not on electrics. Anybody else have such problems? Anybody know what's up?
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 23 Dec 2014 4:41 pm
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Maybe the solution is to amplify your acoustic steel.  |
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Michael Maddex
From:
Northern New Mexico, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2014 6:46 pm
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Edward, my eye can be thrown off if I have been playing instruments with real frets and then switch to one with inlaid fret marker lines. I had one reso that I thought had terribly wrong fret lines (when I first got it) until I checked against another fretboard and found that it was right on. My eyes were fooling me. The parallax with the raised frets and the smooth board was different enough to throw my intonation off. Once I realized what was going on, the problem became a non-problem, that is, it cleared up. Perhaps you are experiencing something similar. Good Luck with this and HTH.
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Gary Mortensen
From:
Elgin, TX
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Posted 23 Dec 2014 8:05 pm
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Edward, I find the same thing is true for me! I feel very good about playing in tune on Dobro but my various steels are a different story. I keep a StroboFlip turned on next to my music stand for reference, but I'm still amazed at how much tougher it is to play the steels in tune. I don't get it...
Gary |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Jim Mckay
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 23 Dec 2014 10:01 pm
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The higher the strings are above the board the more you have to compensate.
If you look directly above your bar when you place it over each fret. Then sit how you normally sit, then see the offset that is needed to keep in tune.
The further away from you the more the offset.
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 24 Dec 2014 9:17 am Here is the Fix you need
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The Fix you need is some wood shed time doing intervals.
Play open then jump to fret 12 - not glide - and do it until you hit in tune 1st go.
Once you can hit the Octave from open in tune then move on to all of the lower frets.
Open to 11 Open to Open 10 and so on.
Later to master the entire neck do fret 1 to 12 and then 1 to 11 up the neck.
Making sure you repeat each one until mastered before moving on to the next interval.
Go next Fret 2 to 12 Fret 2 to 11 and so on. Do every Fret combination.
Later Yet start on fret 12 , to 11 --- 12 to 10 and so on down the neck.
To really get it all going on, do this exercise in the Circle of 5th and circle of 4th.
All of the Mind to Muscle Memory is a must for any Steel Guitar Player sounding good every time without thinking while playing.
Following the Advise on that Tom Brumley Master Class information Andy Volk posted recently is the solution to getting it permanently embedded into your sub conscious.
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 24 Dec 2014 11:20 am
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Michael brought up the problem of parallax, which I've often wondered about. Our arms naturally follow an arc as we move them, not a straight line, yet our fingerboards, nut and bridge are always laid out so that you have to hold the steel in an unnatural angle at right angles to the strings. This is directly related back to where the steel guitar came from. On the regular guitar it has to be fingered from underneath, and a bar is not used. But if you're using a bar from above it makes no sense for the frets to be at right angles to the strings. The answer is, of course, a fanned fingerboard, with the nut, bridge and pickups orientated accordingly. I'm thinking of building one along these lines to test it out. After all, if you think about it, when you run your bar up the strings you have to ensure that it's at right angles through the whole of its travel, which means constant adjustment from your wrist.
Also, the question of height has arisen. Obviously if you're playing with a steel you don't want it to rattle on the fingerboard, but it's just not necessary for the strings to be as high as they are on many steel guitars. Just as long as the bar doesn't hit the body of the guitar, that's all the height that's required. Any additional height just makes it more difficult to judge whether your bar is directly above the fret lines. |
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John Rosett
From:
Missoula, MT
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 8:59 am
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I have the same problem, and I'm wondering how much the bar itself has to do with it. I use a Shubb-Pearce bar on Dobro, and a Paloma ceramic bar on steel, and I think that I'm going to try using the Shubb on steel to see if it makes a difference.
I have pretty bad arthritis in my left hand fingers, and sometimes, it takes considerable warm up before I feel like I can even hold the large bar with any control.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 9:33 am
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I think that the longer sustain makes intonation problems a lot more noticeable on electric steel guitars. On acoustic, the note is more delicate and dies out quicker. Also, the upper harmonics are not heard as well on the acoustic.
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:15 pm
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| Dom Franco wrote: |
1. Are you using lighter gauge strings on your lapsteel?
2. Is the scale length shorter? (making bar position more critical)
3. Are you using a different bar than on your acoustic's?
Dom
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Hmmmm.....all of the above as a matter of fact.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:18 pm Re: Here is the Fix you need
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| George Piburn wrote: |
The Fix you need is some wood shed time doing intervals.
Play open then jump to fret 12 - not glide - and do it until you hit in tune 1st go.
Once you can hit the Octave from open in tune then move on to all of the lower frets.
Open to 11 Open to Open 10 and so on.
Later to master the entire neck do fret 1 to 12 and then 1 to 11 up the neck.
Making sure you repeat each one until mastered before moving on to the next interval.
Go next Fret 2 to 12 Fret 2 to 11 and so on. Do every Fret combination.
Later Yet start on fret 12 , to 11 --- 12 to 10 and so on down the neck.
To really get it all going on, do this exercise in the Circle of 5th and circle of 4th.
All of the Mind to Muscle Memory is a must for any Steel Guitar Player sounding good every time without thinking while playing.
Following the Advise on that Tom Brumley Master Class information Andy Volk posted recently is the solution to getting it permanently embedded into your sub conscious. |
This may have something to do with it too. The problem does tend to be worst on attack and then I usually correct as the note is held. But I only discover it later if the play is recorded. I don't consciously hear it. So I'd have to use a tuner to see how close to the tone I'm actually getting.....or maybe not. I have intonation problems with new guitars that go away in spite of my not making a conscious effort (see below). Maybe if I just do this exercise......
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Last edited by Edward Meisse on 26 Dec 2014 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:20 pm
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
Michael brought up the problem of parallax, which I've often wondered about. Our arms naturally follow an arc as we move them, not a straight line, yet our fingerboards, nut and bridge are always laid out so that you have to hold the steel in an unnatural angle at right angles to the strings. This is directly related back to where the steel guitar came from. On the regular guitar it has to be fingered from underneath, and a bar is not used. But if you're using a bar from above it makes no sense for the frets to be at right angles to the strings. The answer is, of course, a fanned fingerboard, with the nut, bridge and pickups orientated accordingly. I'm thinking of building one along these lines to test it out. After all, if you think about it, when you run your bar up the strings you have to ensure that it's at right angles through the whole of its travel, which means constant adjustment from your wrist.
Also, the question of height has arisen. Obviously if you're playing with a steel you don't want it to rattle on the fingerboard, but it's just not necessary for the strings to be as high as they are on many steel guitars. Just as long as the bar doesn't hit the body of the guitar, that's all the height that's required. Any additional height just makes it more difficult to judge whether your bar is directly above the fret lines. |
I have this problem with guitars that are new to me, whether acoustic or electric. As time goes by and I play the instrument more, this problem tends to solve itself.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:27 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I think that the longer sustain makes intonation problems a lot more noticeable on electric steel guitars. On acoustic, the note is more delicate and dies out quicker. Also, the upper harmonics are not heard as well on the acoustic. |
I get a sense that the lack of upper harmonics on the acoustic may be the key. I have played entire passages on electric quite brilliantly (I think) only to find out later that the whole thing was a quarter tone off. This kind of thing NEVER happens on an acoustic. I do of course hit the odd discord even on acoustic. But it is a persistent problem on the electric. As much as I'd love to play electric, maybe my ear just won't allow it.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:27 pm
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Thanks for all your replies.
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Amor vincit omnia |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 2:44 pm
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Edward, I don't think I can offer a solution, but I will posit from the pov of someone who was completely comfortable playing acoustic steel then encountering a difficult time adjusting to playing electric steel with any kind of real finesse. I learned the hard way that they are best treated differently and I had to completely rethink my approach, which I did.
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 3:29 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| I think that the longer sustain makes intonation problems a lot more noticeable on electric steel guitars. On acoustic, the note is more delicate and dies out quicker. Also, the upper harmonics are not heard as well on the acoustic. |
I agree 1000% The answer is just as simple and obvious as that... everything is "magnified" when your sound is coming through an amp. Your vibrato, your intonation, your blocking, your picking. Your technique becomes more critical when amplified. Add to that the longer sustain of electric instruments and your technique is further magnified on electric. Sometimes we Think we are playing and slanting in tune on acoustic, but the notes die quickly on acoustic and some technique problems are not as easily revealed as they are on electric IMHO.
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 26 Dec 2014 9:39 pm
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May I suggest that you:
1. replace your strings with the heaviest gauge each pitch will allow (less deflection from the bar and the pitch will not bend)
2. Use a bar that is heavy enough to avoid rattles but not too heavy, so you can move quickly and place it down accurately.
3. As others have suggested... Practice, practice, practice. (Work on perfecting intonation, especially if your steel has a shorter scale)
4. Use a recorder, computer or otherwise to listen back to your progress. You will quickly notice certain intervals or licks that need more work. Then focus your woodshedding on these.
Dom
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2015 11:50 am
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Thanks again, everybody. I'm considering trying electric again. But I don't know. I do find them much more difficult in general. Intonation is the biggest problem. But not the only one.
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Marty Forrer
From:
New Zealand
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Posted 17 Jan 2015 3:09 pm
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I am a noob, so my opinion matters little, but check out Joe Wright on Youtube. He's playing pedal steel, and he's tearing it up, and half the time he's not looking at his instrument. Now I know this is all part of being a showman, but dang, he must've done some serious woodshedding to get to the point where muscle memory and quick ears take over from the eyes.
Because I've been playing a double bass with no markers at all for the last 25 years, I'm finding it not too hard to play the lap steel in tune. Not bragging, just suggesting that the muscle memory and the ears are perhaps more important than the eyes. Food for thought.
I believe the poster earlier in this thread who suggested practicing intervallic leaps is on the button, this is what I had to learn on double bass. |
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Andy Costigan
From:
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
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Billy Gilbert
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2015 6:59 am intonation
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| Sitting on the first or second row in the Dallas non pedal room, 10 feet or less from the players, I have noticed that even the best of the best players seldom have their bars absolutely "straight" across the strings most of the time. The angle can run as much as 3/8" out of square. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 18 Jan 2015 4:48 pm
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I've also seen lap steels where the nut is slightly out of place. This throws all the frets out. |
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Frank Welsh
From:
Upstate New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2015 5:25 pm
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I have a Fender Deluxe 6 in otherwise mint condition that will not intonate properly unless the bridge is moved up against the blend control shaft. This unfortunately places the bridge entirely off of the small stamped "bumps" in the bridge plate that are supposed to allow the bridge to make solid contact with the bridge plate, enhancing sustain. With the bridge centered over those contact points, the intonation is sharp by a good quarter tone.
I can't believe that Fender let this get through. None of my other steels - the cheap ones as well as the good ones - have this issue.
It's always a good idea to carefully check intonation at the twelfth fret to see if you get a true octave. My Fender really should have the entire bridge plate moved back but there is no room to do this on the guitar since the plate is already close to the end of the guitar. |
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