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Post new topic Eliminate Vertical Knee Lever
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Author Topic:  Eliminate Vertical Knee Lever
Tom Campbell

 

From:
Houston, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 7:10 am    
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Have any of you eliminated your left knee vertical lever and replaced that pull with a pedal?

My experience with the LKV lever is one of frustration...it is slow to activate, and at times I almost lift the guitar. I think I have made most mechanical adjustment possible and still it's the weak point in the "pull" system.

My solution was to move the F# to G (original LKV raise) to the LKL lever and my E to F (original LKL raise) to a pedal O position (1st pedal...to the left of the A pedal). This change seems to be working out well.


Last edited by Tom Campbell on 19 Dec 2014 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bill C. Buntin

 

Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 8:06 am    
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Tom I had that problem on a really lightweight guitar once. The vertical lever is a great feature and can be adjusted where it isn't so physically demanding. I have fixed this on other guitars as well. Can be accomplished several ways. The easiest way is to unload the lever by putting only one or two changes.

You can also change the torque that is required, like if you are using it direct on a cross shaft that has the pulls on it. In other words, move those pulls to an additional cross shaft. Then rig the lkv to pull or push on that cross shaft, you need some linkage, swivels and hardware , larger bell cranks made for such purposes.

Difficult to put into words. I don't have pictures but works like a reversing lever. Some guitars have their verticals in a reverse configuration. I don't like them that way personally.

Using your zero pedal I am sure is a fine alternative.

Anyway-fWIW-personally, I would redo the vertical mechanics until it is easy to push.

~Bill
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 8:45 am    
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I thought about E->F on a pedal, but then I don't see how to get smoothly from A/B to A/F.
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 10:53 am    
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Ian Rae wrote:
I thought about E->F on a pedal, but then I don't see how to get smoothly from A/B to A/F.


Not to mention the addition of the E - F lever to the A & B pedals for the augmented chord (which is a nice movement from A&B to A&F one fret up. 1 to 4 chord movement).

I have the F# to G on my vertical and have no problems, and I play a Carter which is a reasonably light guitar. Even by itself and hitting it quickly. Just takes patience and practice. I would do without the F# to G change before sticking the E to F lever on a pedal. Just not a very practical move. But if it works for you...
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Richard Sinkler


From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 10:57 am    
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And you don't say what type of guitar. If you have a D10, you can put the F# to G on the last pedal and use 2 feet when needed. Can be done on an S10, but it would be too tough for me.
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Tom Campbell

 

From:
Houston, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 11:12 am    
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I have a Sierra 12 string.

My O pedal is the first pedal on the pedal bar...the next pedal is the A pedal. If I engage pedal O (E to F) and the A pedal (B to C#) I can get the part of the augmented chord that matters...just can't get what the B pedal (G# to A) offers, because my foot isn't wide enough to depress all three pedals.
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Paul Hoaglin

 

Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 11:44 am    
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I really think vertical levers should be rethought by makers generally, as most of them seem to not be ideally designed. I have some ideas that I've "borrowed" from Carl Dixon and a few others for a forwards/backwards pivoting lever, and hopefully will soon be building something which will be superior to what I have now (which is itself a modification from what originally came on the guitar). I do think that a poorly matched-to-the-player vertical design really impedes the player from using it effectively, and also, the changes on the lever affect how and when it's used. I'm now fully converted to the "1 & 7 raises on the vertical" camp (I drank Mike Perlowin's Kool-Aid! Smile ), but even the "standard" 5 & 10 drop or other changes can be made much more usable if the lever is properly designed and adjusted/adjustable to the player. I wouldn't ever ditch it, but I'd certainly redesign it.

Tom's idea is intriguing, though, if you're willing/able to do more footwork. A similar idea, but still using the vertical, is one that came from my dad's copedent. He played Emmons pedals but lowered his 4 & 8 on LKL, raised 1 & 7 on LKR, and raised 4 & 8 on LKV (making the hotly debated "Buddy vs. Paul" smooth move possible by going back and forth between LKL and LKV with the A pedal down). My variation would have been to reverse LKL and LKR, because I have the "standard" Emmons "E lowers on LKR" setup. I've never tried it, and haven't sorted out what I'd gain or lose, but it is an interested solution to that age-old problem.

Gone off-topic again - sorry.... Embarassed


Last edited by Paul Hoaglin on 20 Dec 2014 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom Campbell

 

From:
Houston, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 1:30 pm    
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Paul,

I've also experimented with LKL raising 1 and 7 and putting 4 and 8 on the LKV lever.

With AB pedals down, all I have to do is lean my left to the left and I can get the 1 & 7 raise. AB pedals down and raising my left leg to LKV, I can get the augmented chord. Because the I don't use the 4 & 8 raise that much, it is sort of out of the way on the LKV...but the (problem) mechanics of the vertical level is still there.
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Paul Hoaglin

 

Post  Posted 19 Dec 2014 8:24 pm    
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True enough! What I'm finding currently is that, to keep the LKL & LKR close enough together to do the "smooth move," sometimes when I raise the knee up to move the vertical, my pant leg (or, worse, sometimes flesh too) catches on one of the side levers, just enough to impede the movement (and hurt a little bit too). I'm hopeful that my new design will change the angle of attack just enough to minimise that problem. I also have made a new longer lever for LKL which will allow it to sit out a titch farther, and still make it easy for me to do my ankle pivot and catch it with the top of my calf muscle just below the knee. Now I just have to learn how to anodise aluminium to make it match the others! Very Happy

The geometry of all of the knee levers, and how individualised they have to be for each player to get the most out of everything, really never ceases to boggle my mind....
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 20 Dec 2014 6:05 am    
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I must say that I dislike the vertical lever so I tend to assign my least-used changes to it.

On my Zum Encore (3+5) I have it raising 7,2 and 1 (which, by the way, regardless of it being an extremely lightweight guitar, works very well).

On my Emmons (8+9) I have LKV raising thye 6th a whole step - when I first thought of it I was excited, believing that I'd really come up with something out-of-the-box, but apart from it being a neat way of getting a 6 major chord with pedals down (or an F#7 at zero fret, for example) and some nice counterpoint I find I almost never use it.

Tommy White's old Carter? I think it has the standard 7th string raise but I haven't played that guitar since September and I've forgotten. I have little use for that change either.
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Mike Archer


From:
church hill tn
Post  Posted 20 Dec 2014 9:30 am     vertical knee
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I never cared for the vertical knee lever
on any brand of steel
even less after my double knee replacements
I go out of my way not to use it Laughing
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John Russell

 

From:
Austin, Texas
Post  Posted 26 Dec 2014 1:32 pm     Lkv
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My vertical knee lever is pretty indispensable. I raise the middle F# to G. I use it primarily with pedals A and B engaged to form a seventh chord. So from the 3rd fret, it would be a C7. Dominant seven chords are real handy and I have several on my S12U guitars. The vertical raise on the Sierra is a little lighter tension than on the Zum but both are real easy action raises. The Zum has an easier RKR lever than the Sierra--lowering the B to Bb. Both guitars are set up identically, but those changes are the only noticeable difference. The Sierra has quieter pedal action and is a joy to play.
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Mike Archer


From:
church hill tn
Post  Posted 26 Dec 2014 2:44 pm     thats cool
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John that's cool set up you play

I got string 5 on my 0 pedal whole tone lower
and I lower string 6 a whole tone on rkr

and lower 10 a tone and a half it offers some good

changes when using string 6 whole tone lower

I do lower string 5 on vertical but like I say

its hard for me to get to so I dont use it much
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