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Topic: Who is making 14 string guitars now? |
Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 8:33 am |
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| Who is producing 14 string guitars that will accommodate the Julian Tharpe 10 floor 6 knee tuning? [This message was edited by Jerry Clardy on 22 March 2004 at 08:39 AM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 8:47 am
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Excel for one. Don't know of any others. Sierra did but they are not in business at the moment. If they do get back in business, I imagine they will again manufacture 14 stringers. Not sure about Kline. Did they ever build a 14 string PSG?
It is my understanding that Joe Kline is building them again. If so, maybe he would build one. Again I have no idea.
carl |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 9:10 am
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I believe Williams makes one.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sho-Bud Super Pro, 8 x 5, ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, Webb 6-14E, Fender Vibrasonic Custom,
The Mother Truckers
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KENNY KRUPNICK
From:
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 9:12 am
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| Maybe Jerry Fessenden? |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 11:22 am
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How does the tone of the Excel guitar stack up? Is it similar to Emmons or Sho-Bud? Or?
Does this guitar have a really strong cabinet? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 12:21 pm
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Its sound is uniquely its own. I could not describe it in terms of Sho-Bud or Emmons. But I like it. I love the Emmons's sound also.
If I was pressed, I would 'opt for the Emmons sound. But they do not build a 12 or 14 stringer. Also, I believe that a 3/2 changer is outdated in today's world of PSG's with ever more complex copedents.
The Excel has a 6 raise and 5 lower changer. It has raise helper springs adjustable from the right end plate. Comes standard with "split screws" on all strings.
Also, it is just one of two PSG's made that does NOT break strings. The changers are radically different than all the rest being built today.
They both change pitch by stretching the strings in an almost straight line; rather than bending the string back and forth. Thus NO string breakage due to premature metal fatigue due to being bent. Which is how MOST strings break.
Its cabinet strength is average. However, like the LeGrande III, it has the "counterforce mod". It works on the keyless end rather than at the changer end. So there should be no audible cabinet drop. The model name is "SuperB". If I am not mistaken, the "mod" comes standard. IE, no extra cost.
Scotty is the dealer for them.
carl |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 12:26 pm
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Thanks for the info, guys!
Carl - The mechanics sound really good on this guitar. If it has good tone, that would really make it a good choice.
I've got Scotty running a price check now.
Jerry |
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Roy Ayres
From:
Riverview, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 2:57 pm
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| I was honored to spend a few days with Bill Stafford this week. Bill has a new 14-string Excel. I sat and listened to Bill play for hours, all the while studying the design and construction ot that fabulous instrument. I have yet to see a steel guitar with more inherent, built-in quality. The quality of the guitar equals the quality of Bill's talent. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 3:03 pm
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Jerry Fessenden will build you one if you're nice to him  (and leave the logo on...). |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 5:55 pm
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John - Is that you on the Fessenden site with the blue D10? Has Jerry made 14 string guitars before? I don't see them on the site.
Jerry |
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Sonny Priddy
From:
Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Mar 2004 8:19 pm
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I Would Say Jerry Can Do It. SONNY.
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Ron Castle
From:
West Hurley,NY
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 2:50 am
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I believe I own the only 14str Fessenden ever made. Jerry's made several Keyed 13str's and one
keyless 14str- mine, 9p & 6K's dbl body, maple body & neck BL714 PU and I love it!
However, I'm not sure he'd build another. |
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Winnie Winston
From:
Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 3:09 am
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Carl said:
"Also, it is just one of two PSG's made that does NOT break strings. The changers are radically different than all the rest being built today. "
Yup. The other that has a similar changer is the Anapeg. Not sure if the chager is similar in design, but it is certainly similar in concept.
I think Joe made a few 14's. I vaguely remember someone getting one through me when I was still in the states.
JW |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 3:11 am
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According to their website, Williams will build one.
I would think that GFI would also. |
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Bill Stafford
From:
Gulfport,Ms. USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 4:23 am
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EXCEL has a new SUPERB model that lives up to its name in all respects!!
Bill Stafford
And the price is right, just check with Scotty as he is the USA dealer....Thanks |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 8:32 am
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| Let me add my name to the list of Excel converts. I have a keyless 12 string universal w/8+9,E-Eb lock lever and the anti-detune gadget.Like Carl says,it breaks NO strings - ever.I put a Jerry Wallace 17.5 single coil on it and I would have to compare it to the best sounding guitars I have ever heard. When Jay Dee played it it sounded like his Emmons - of course well,you know..... It's also the lightest guitar I've ever owned at 32 lbs and it goes into a case the size of a tenor sax case.By the way,I think the model name is Superb,not Super B. -MJ- |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 9:02 am
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Yes Winnie,
The two changers are so close in design that for all practical purposes they work identically.
If there are any skeptics about them not breaking any strings, let me say, I put it through every test I could think of and they simply do NOT break strings. I changed my 3rd string after 3 and 1/2 yrs only because it was sooooo dead. But I just got tired of waiting for it to break. I played it almost every day from one to 10 hours during that time.
Remember, as Bill Stafford said, the Excel comes standard with a 25 and 1/2" scale! NO way could any other PSG (save the Anapeg) get away with this scale an not break strings incessantly.
And it makes sense. When you bend ANY metal back and forth, you simply fatigue it prematurely. The Anapeg and the Excel do NOT bend the string to change pitch. (They do bend it to install it but then it is not bent again to change pitch.)
The changer fingers moves from left to right; rather than move in a rolling pattern as all other modern changers do.
Michael, with much sincere respect, I stand corrected. As many times as I have looked at it, I never realized that b was not capitalized. Thanks for telling me.
carl |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 6:14 pm
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Michael - What made you get the True Tone pickup? What was different about the stock pickup?
Jerry |
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Jerry Clardy
From:
El Paso, Texas, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Mar 2004 8:00 pm
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| Can anyone give information on the detuning compensators on the Excel Superb? What exactly are they? Do they require tuning? Do they really work? Are they really necessary? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 6:56 am
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| Quote: |
| "Can anyone give information on the detuning compensators on the Excel Superb? What exactly are they? Do they require tuning? Do they really work? Are they really necessary?" |
1. The "detuning compensators" are called "counter force" compensators by Emmons. They counteract the problem of strings NOT pulled, lowering in pitch, when other strings are raised. This is called "cabinet drop" by most players. Excel began using them about 2 yrs ago as I recall.
2. Yes, they require tuning on both the Emmons LeGrande III AND the Excel Superb models. Brass knurled allen capscrews (underneath the guitar) are adjusted for each pedal that is compensated. Once set, they rarely need further adjustment.
3. Indeed they DO work. When properly adjusted the cabinet drop is ZERO using a meter with a needle. The needle does NOT move!
4. Who needs them?
Those of us who can't stand "cabinet drop". This does not include ALL players. Some do not care. Other players cannot hear it. But for those of us who can (and it bothers them), the "counterforce" mod, is a blessing.
If you will look closely at the following photo, and note Pedal Crossrods A, B and C, (Jimmy Day setup), you will note the brass allen head capscrews mentioned above.
This is on and Emmons' LeGrande III. Excel's are almost identical. The only difference is, Excel counterforces the nut end and Emmons counterforces the changer end.
I will try to take a photo of the Excel ass'y later and post it.
carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 March 2004 at 07:03 AM.] [This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 March 2004 at 07:05 AM.] |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 6:57 am
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If you would like photos of the Excel Superb, E mail me and I will send them. These are the latest and greatest. One shows the anti-detuning mechanism.
Is it possible that there are more than two instruments that don't "break strings"? Have you really tried them all? With the same type of strings? Linear pull for the halftone changes is good, ..linear pull for the halftone changes with a shallow angle (minimized wrap) would be better.
Metal "fatigue" is the issue here; The 0.011 gauge is at the limit re just tension (30+ pounds), let alone bending/wrap and bending/change. For the same string material,a 0.0115 gauge makes a large difference in the "Pounds per square inch" of string, even with the required increase in tension; Do the arithmetic = run the numbers.
Do you "stomp snakes" like the Bakersfield sound, or are you more the "gentle" type.
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 7:11 am
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| Quote: |
| "Is it possible that there are more than two instruments that don't "break strings"? Have you really tried them all?" |
Anything is possible. No I have not tried them all. But I would bet you the finest steak dinner (of your choice and place) my precious friend, that if ANY statement has ever been true on this earth, "only two PSG's that do not break strings", is as true as it can get.
IMO, JUST as accurate as, "if two sides of one triangle are equal respectively to two sides of another triangle; and the angle opposite the third side of the first is equal to the angle opposite the third side of the second, THEN the two triangles ARE congruent"
Luv you dear friend,
carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 24 March 2004 at 07:14 AM.] |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 8:32 am
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On Guarde Monsieur!
Thought that that might get a rise from you! I would suggest that you take a close look at the Kline with the shallow wrap across the changer finger, ..you might add a third maker to the two. Then maybe look at the combined changer/tuner mechanism with the shallow wrap, with or without linear (psuedo) halftone change pulls, ..who ever makes that will also reduce the string breakage problem from the "baling wire" effect.
It appears that we use different criteria for deciding what is "truth", or perhaps what "truth" is. I can accept your comment re "two makers" as an opinion as to makers known to you that appear to have less string breakage than others known to you, with some statistical validity, but not as an absolute "truth".
Would you say that two plus two equals four is an absolute truth? Would you say that all triangles have 180 degrees is an absolute truth?
I am not sure what the point of the high school geometry quote is, but if I recall rightly, it is an AXIOM (might be wrong, it is a long time since high school) = "universally accepted as true", ..note the word accepted = "generally considered as true" ..that is not "absolute", ..more like useable for the purpose at hand.
More to the theme of this thread, 14 string instrument makers, I have six still in the shipping box Sierra Session Series 14 string units (E9/B6) if anyone is interested, e mail me. They have not broken a string in many years, of course they have not been played yet either.
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 9:20 am
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The quote about the triangles was NOT an "axiom"
But it was absolute truth.
So was my opinion about "only two guitars not breaking strings"
And the proof; or refutation, (is there such a word? ) will be a result of the following:
Until you show me and Excel Superb or an Anapeg that break strings; or any other present model PSG that does not break strings; or both: I shall respectfully hold that my statement was "absolute" truth.
Now back to my promise. The following is a photo of the brass adjuster which is part of the Excel's "counterforce" ass'y. I elected to raise it up high so it is easier to get to, (unlike the standard way Mitsuo does it). In either case, it results in cabinet drop being "absolute" Zero. 
Note: the adjuster closest is the individual adjuster (one on each pedal that is compensated), the one furthest away is the master adjustment and is attached to the "Pusher" that is the intregal part of the counterforce mechanism.
This pusher ass'y actually pivots all the tuning screws (not shown) at the nut end. Which then counteracts the cabinet drop problem.
Luv you Ed,
carl |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 24 Mar 2004 10:32 am
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CD; You are correct about "not an axiom", ..I recall Axioms, postulates, theorems, corrolaries, and proofs as the going terminology, ..may have changed by now.
RE axiom such as things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, ..are all 14 strings "universals"? Just what is the definition of a "universal" as you see it?
since you did not "bite" on the 2+2 and the 180 degrees, ..both of those are "not unversally true", but were accepted so at one time.
Why is it my burden to "show you" another instrument when you have not "shown me" but simply made a statement? Again, look at the newer Klines and see if that makes a difference in your "opinion".
Re "steak", ..maybe I am a vegetarian?
We can agree upon the Excel being a great piece of work. I will e mail you the photos of Bill Staffords Excel from the Texas show and you can post/use them as you see fit.
If communication does not get bogged down in translation, Excel will propbably make my next 14 stringer with the changer/tuner integrated and on the "tuner end", a drop on or drop in fretboard, and a bunch of other unusual items. Mitsou has seen the c/t combo and said that he will build that, but has not seen the rest per his language.
If anyone wants to see the RFQ that was sent, just e mail me and I will send you a copy, coped', dim's, and reasons.
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