Pedal feel on old Emmons ?

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Is there a difference between the 60's and 70's PP Emmons when it comes to pedal stiffness ?

Bob

richard burton · From: Britain

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Well, just to be different, I'll have to say yes,,,,,even if it's a "qualified" yes.
I would also say that the push pulls with the LeGrand style floor pedals has yet another feel to them. I don't necessarily know why, but not all push pulls react the same as far as pedal/lever action. Some just play a little harder than others. That said, in most cases, I have found that with a little work here and there, a few adjustments, some TLC and a little knowledgable knowhow, most push pulls can play as good as and sometimes even better than most all pull guitars.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

In my very limited experience it seems like the 60's PPs with the wide pedals are softer feeling and have more of a clunk when they hit there change than the 70's ones with 5095 (?) pedals. Particularly with the B pedal.

Did Emmons make any changes over the years with the push pull under carriage ?

thanks, Bob

Mike Cass · Posted 22 Mar 2004 12:38 am

Bob, the 60's guitars had a flocked maple pedal stop bar as opposed to the 70's and on, when they began to use a flocked piece of steel instead. The wood gives you that softer clunk youve mentioned. However, the biggest change Ive seen in the 60's-70's guitars is the angle of the bellcranks. Two things cause this: 1.many 60's guitars had the cranks standing up straighter than later models, due to the weld of the x-shaft to the pedal bellcrank. The flat side of the shaft would sometimes be at less of an angle relative to the pedal crank, thereby causing less forward cant to the activator bellcranks. This of course will change the mechanical advantage, esp for the 3rd pedal in Emmons split(ped 1 for Day)
2. the height of the stopbar itself will also change the cant of the bellcranks much the same way as the angle of the weld. Ive seen variations on both items.
All in all, I find some 60's guitars to play maybe just a hair longer, while the 70's-80's guitars tend to play a bit shorter and faster. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Buddy's "Blade" is as fast,smooth and comfortable to play as any guitar Ive seen and its a '67 I believe.
I cant see the type of pedal causing much difference either. I just worked on a 80's model D-12 p/p with small LeGrande pedals that played pretty nice when I was thru with it.
Now some will tell you that reducing the length of the shock springs(or ommitting them all together)will make them play better....not true! As Buddy Gene has said; the changer needs to be pre-tuned,the lowers installed and adjusted before the raises,the raise hooks need to be in the correct holes and lower slack accounted for if applicable,the shock springs need to be installed correctly not only for feel but for timing, and all stops need to be simultaneous. Following these procedures also alleviates stress on parts like swivel clips, hooks, collars and return springs, etc; thats from the man who invented it.
Additionally, Ive discovered that by following these directions, the microphonic noise associated with the use of non-humbucking pickups in these guitars can be greatly reduced.
How many guitars have come to my shop with the chief complaints being: "it doesnt stay in tune,its too stiff,too short,too long,I break hooks and springs," etc?
99 out of 100 times its due to a departure from the recommended procedures described above. Ron Jr. has the correct springs for sale and I use them. The p/p mechanism doesnt need "raise or lower-assist springs","longer homemade bellcranks" or "Craftsman elbow-joints to convert motion of direction" to make it work. No need to "re-invent the wheel" here. I have boxes full of junked up parts removed from guitars to prove it.
It was pretty darn good in '63-64 as originally concieved, and remains so today, imho.

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 22 March 2004 at 04:27 AM.]

Tommy Cass · From: Baldwinville, Ma. U.S.A.

Mike has given a lot of information here and it is 100% accurate.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Bruce W Heffner · From: Payson, Arizona

I agree with Mike Cass. He correct in his statements. The push pull was pretty good then and still is today.

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www.pedalsteel.net

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Thanks for the insights. It got me looking in the right spots to find what I was looking for.

Bob

Mike Cass · Posted 22 Mar 2004 9:06 pm

yes Jim, Emmons Co still stocks them, and its ordering time again for me!
MC

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 22 March 2004 at 09:06 PM.]

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Mike definitely knows whassup with these babies.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Mike set mine up and people tell me it plays as good or better than the LeGrandes.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,S-10 Marlin,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal

Pat Burns · From: Branchville, N.J. USA

..Mike, I own a guitar that you worked on, but even such a well-adjusted guitar as mine can't stay that way forever....you're either going to have to live forever, or I'm going to have to die when you do..

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Cool post

Kelcey ONeil · From: Sevierville, TN

Yes indeed Johnie!
Very good and accurate info from Mike Cass.
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co.

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