| Author |
Topic: "It's neat how you duck in and out of songs like that" |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 11 Nov 2014 7:25 pm |
|
This is a general music comment more than anything. I had a guitar player say this quote during a jam session. For people that play steel, harmonica, or any other accompanying instrument, knowing when to enter a song and when your window has closed is the central concept of playing. Guitar players are fascinated by the idea of ever NOT playing.
It's difficult for me to remember when I used to think that way. Many of my favorite songs now have many instruments, but they're arranged in a way to make the song feel sparse and light. Meanwhile, an electric guitar, bass, and drums alone can make a song feel bloated.
It never ceases to amaze me how caught up in our own little musical bubbles we can become that even the smallest, most natural differences become so mind-blowing. As a steel player, it's cuts in my favor because it's really easy for me to impress other musicians with my modest skills and ideas. |
|
|
 |
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 12 Nov 2014 4:13 am
|
|
"It's neat how you duck in and out of songs like that"
That's quite a compliment to receive.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
|
|
|
Ian
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 14 Nov 2014 11:14 am
|
|
"The space between the notes" - that's where it's at!
Ian |
|
|
|
Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
|
Posted 14 Nov 2014 11:25 am
|
|
| One of the first things Jeff Newman would teach was when to play and when to shut up. If the singers lips are moving, don't play. |
|
|
|
Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
|
Posted 14 Nov 2014 5:48 pm
|
|
The guitar/keyboard player in the band I'm working with was classically-trained. He commented to me when he was learning, his teachers stressed the importance of "playing the rests". I understood immediately.
I play a lot of rests. There are some songs where all I play are rests, and most other stuff I play more rests than notes. That way, on a paid gig I am actually being paid a far higher rate-per-note than the rest of the band!
Works for me.
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
|
|
|
Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 14 Nov 2014 8:48 pm
|
|
Excellent thread.
The best musicians impress me with all the notes they don't play.
Authors, with all the words they don't write.
Craig
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 5:01 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Guitar players are fascinated by the idea of ever NOT playing. |
In my experience, guitarists that play all the time usually started out playing rock. In that genre, "laying out" was something that was rarely done. The emphasis among the thashers and bangers was "maximize the sound"..."give it impact". Whereas, a country or jazz player knew immediately that sharing the limelight was an essential technique - to give other players space, and also to lend dialog to the music, and to give other players a chance to come up with new musical ideas and react with each other.  |
|
|
|
Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 7:03 am
|
|
JC
A+
CB
_________________
"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
|
|
|
Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 7:04 am
|
|
A long time ago, a very good musician who was far more accomplished than myself, told me that what you don't play is much more important than what you do play.
It took awhile, but eventually I came to understand where he was coming from. |
|
|
|
Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 7:57 am
|
|
| Bonnie Raitt said that the spaces between the notes are more important than the notes themselves. |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 9:00 am
|
|
Donny, I agree with you to a point about Rock guitarists, but that really is just a by-product of all the 70s and 80s Rock guitar gods. There is a ton of Rock that has a minimalistic approach, too.
Frankly, I 've really been interested in creating a kind of music for the steel that is more guitar-like, like the Steve Vai, Jeff Beck and Joe Satriani kind of thing. Even though I don't really play much guitar anymore, I have never really been able to assume a steel player's mentality completely.
That quote about the space between the notes is gospel, but it is also overused. If the notes you play before and after the space aren't right, then the space is just a relief. When the phrases before and after space are right, it's like listening to someone tell a story. Approach playing like you would having a conversation. Playing behind a singer is like offering affirmation or disagreement without going into detail. When the solo comes, you get the chance to tell your side of the story.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 9:12 am
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Approach playing like you would having a conversation. Playing behind a singer is like offering affirmation or disagreement without going into detail. When the solo comes, you get the chance to tell your side of the story. |
I like that way of putting it. One way I think about it is that steel can give another layer to the mood of the song, especially for moody songs. For example, if the lyrics and the guitar tell a story of regret, the steel part can make it 'regret tinged with confusion'. It makes a song more mature because life is complicated like that. Not having that extra layer makes the song ambiguous, for better or for worse, but if you've got something to say, why not say it well. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 1:28 pm
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
Donny, I agree with you to a point about Rock guitarists, but that really is just a by-product of all the 70s and 80s Rock guitar gods. There is a ton of Rock that has a minimalistic approach, too.
|
Well, yes...I guess there is. But I think the problem is that that's not what most rock (and country) players are aspiring to. The "shred a gazzilion loud-distorted notes" technique seems far more prevalent. I also agree with the "less is more" idea, but that can be taken to far, too. I always relate Buddy Emmons being "phased out" of Ray Price's music with the song "It Should Be Easier Now". He was mixed out so much that his presence became almost unnoticeable. For awhile, I thought this was strange. But when Curly Chalker started playing on Ray's stuff, the result was the same - the steel became almost inaudible. Sure, there were some grace notes and chord pads in few songs like "First Time Thing", but the steel never again rose to prominance until the last couple of albums he did...again, with Emmons. Ray went back to his roots far too late, IMHO.
If playing only one or two notes is all that you do, you're easily overlooked. It's easy to see why a blazing lead player is considered essential, but the steeler, who only does grace notes and muted pads here and there, isn't. |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 15 Nov 2014 2:04 pm
|
|
| Roger Crawford wrote: |
| One of the first things Jeff Newman would teach was when to play and when to shut up. If the singers lips are moving, don't play. |
Are you talking about the style where every fill is spoken for by some instrument and pads are rare? In older music, I find that it gets too boring and predictable. My philosophy that I have right now is that if your instrument isn't adding anything, it shouldn't be in the song. For people that have listened to enough music, they can often figure out what's being implied, musically speaking, and don't need an instrument to fill in that space.
Sometimes I try to add another dimension by using varying volume... not just swells and sustain, but playing different parts at different volumes and varying the volume within a phrase depending on what the other instruments doing. I mentioned that idea on this forum a while ago and someone told me that this is a no-no... I'm not so sure. I'm still in the process of developing my personal style, so playing around with these ideas is really fun for me. |
|
|
|
Paul Norman
From:
Washington, North Carolina, USA
|
|
|
|
Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
|
Posted 18 Nov 2014 2:48 am
|
|
| Ray Price and steelers were all wrong. |
|
|
|
Rick Myrland
From:
New Orleans
|
Posted 18 Nov 2014 9:08 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| Ray Price and steelers were all wrong |
I agree Roual, there's a bit of hypocracy in this advice. Maybe Jeff Newman's comments are good for us mere mortals, but you hear great steel playing all the time taking place behind the lyrics on records both old and new. When's the last time someone told Paul Franklin or Buddy Emmons to keep quiet?
_________________
Mullen G2; Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb; Goodrich L-120 |
|
|
|
Dustin Rigsby
From:
Parts Unknown, Ohio
|
Posted 19 Nov 2014 10:09 pm
|
|
It's more about not OVERPLAYING and when to get in and get out. The masters know....that's why they are who they are !
_________________
D.S. Rigsby |
|
|
|
Wayne Morton
From:
Tishomingo, Okla
|
Posted 20 Nov 2014 6:07 am
|
|
Music is like a conversation, I can't hear what you're saying if I'm talking. The most important message, learn when not to talk, or when not to play.
_________________
Emmons 82 SKH, Emmons 93 Legrande II, Emmons 72 Fat Back, Mullen G2 Purple Heart, 82 Zum |
|
|
|
Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
|
Posted 20 Nov 2014 7:56 am
|
|
I think you're right, Wayne, it's what makes a musician, whether speaking or playing.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
|
|
|
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
|
Posted 20 Nov 2014 8:10 pm
|
|
It seems like the worst thing you can do is be uptight about it. This song came up on my music player while I was walking the dog this evening. It fits this topic pretty well.
http://youtu.be/LAhkeJz1ZhY
It has near-continuous steel throughout the track. Some of the pads blur the distinction with the fills. Some of the fills sound like pads. Sometimes BJ Cole sits out of a fill entirely.
It's a steel-centric song but I don't think he's overplaying given that the other instruments yield to it. |
|
|
|
Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
|
Posted 26 Nov 2014 7:02 am
|
|
I know that Jeff Newman discouraged picking during the singing parts, but some of the best steel accompaniment I've ever enjoyed has been Buddy Emmons' or Jimmy Day's steel on the "old" records where they stayed active throughout the entire song.... albeit "tastefully".
_________________
Lawyers are done: Emmons SD-10, 3 Dekleys including a D10, NV400, and lots of effects units to cover my clams... |
|
|
|
John Booth
From:
Columbus Ohio, USA
|
Posted 26 Nov 2014 8:55 am
|
|
Sometimes, when the guys play "Achey Breakey Heart" for the 10,000th time I don't play at all.
Am I good or what ! 
_________________
Jb in Ohio
..................................
GFI S10 Ultra, Telecaster, a Hound Dog, and an Annoyed Wife
.................................. |
|
|
|
