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Topic: Hexangonal open bellcranks |
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 11:31 am |
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I just had a minor epiphany while thinking about another post.
Is the presure on a bellcrank and cross shaft so much that :
a bellcrank can't be built like a box wrench
open on one side, with a bolt-on or screw tensioning side to drop or swing into place, so you don't have to completely de-mount a Sho-Bud (or other) cross shaft and lift several rods just to add new changes.
This would be more dificult on round shafts of course.
But it seems like a good idea on the surface. Just drop it between the rods where you want tighten it in and add rods.
This would make steel techs lives so much easier and save players money too when doing changes.
Why aren't there pulling side grooves cut in the round shafts so a bellcrank doesn't only have the friction to keep it in place?
I have old hex shafts and Diane Marrs round ones.
But it would be so nice just to drop a bellcrank where I want and try a pull in 10-15 minutes vs 2-3 hours.
I might guess there are similar systems on some steels I haven't seen.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 February 2004 at 11:33 AM.] |
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 11:38 am
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I am using some of Jerry Fessenden's slip-on pullers and rods to add some changes to a hex-shaft Sho-Bud Super Pro. They are a perfect fit and work fine. The only modification I made was to cut 1/4" off the nylon tuning nuts.  |
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Jackie Anderson
From:
Scarborough, ME
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 11:40 am
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| Some round cross rods do have such a groove, or keyway. I have drilled shallow spots on round cross rods to anchor bell crank set screws, but it doesn't help make new set-ups quickly. The answer is that a number builders are now using square, hex or otherwise flat-sided cross rods, and open-sided bell cranks, just as you are thinking. [This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 20 February 2004 at 12:32 PM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 12:41 pm
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| The new Zum bellcranks are a dream. You don't have to take the crossshaft out to move or change bellcranks. The rods do not cover up the allen screw that tightens the crank on the crossshaft. And the rod slips into the crank from the side, so you don't have to unscrew the nylon tuner to try another slot on the crank. The GFI cranks also seem like convenient ones. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 2:53 pm
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Jim Smith
Thanks for the tip on the Fessie parts.
Thanks also Jack and the other DD to.
I have several round parts, but would love 6 or so of these babies too. better than filing the round to somethiung sort of HEX.
So much time to be saved looking for that lost chord.
I have beenunder the hood on more Zums than anything else besides my Bud and it is a vert well made and logical unit.
But Jerry F.will definitelly be one of me new friends.
And Jim Cohen sures sonds good on his too. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 3:05 pm
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The first crossbars I saw were round with a flatted area on the shaft. This was my Emmons' 69 P/P. I found this to be a negative in that you had to remove the crossbar to add or remove a bellcrank.
Then I saw a Sho-Bud system and I feel it was even worse because hexagonal bell cranks almost mandate they be cast. Which usually can not be fabricated by the average worker. As well as the crossbars having to be removed to add or remove bellcranks.
Then when Emmons' came out with their 5/16" square crossbars with easily removable bellcranks, I said, "Now that is an improvement. I have not changed that opinion since. Their first "square" bellcranks were 4 hole. Then they improved these by going to 14 hole bellcranks.
As I have said many times on this forum, I believe them to be the single greatest improvement since the inception of the PSG. Because having 14 holes, just about insures the ability to "time" all pulls on a given pedal or knee lever perfectly. So that each pull starts and stops at the same instant.
carl |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 4:04 pm
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Sounds like the method Mullen has been using for years. And... it is fast and easy to make changes. Just loosen a set screw to remove or repostition a crank.
'Course there is that little hairpin clip.
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barry wheeler
From:
Sumerco, WV, USA
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 6:14 pm
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| Has anyone ever tried the Mullens bellcrank on a sho-bud.If the hex shafts were close in size, it looks like it could work. [This message was edited by barry wheeler on 20 February 2004 at 06:15 PM.] |
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Doug Seymour
From:
Jamestown NY USA (deceased)
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 7:58 pm
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| I thought Jerry Fessenden had the only bellcrank? Am I wrong? I never had a Fessenden, but I think you only have to lossen the tuning nut to slip the pull into a different slot to change the leverage! There's a lot of you guys out there that play Fessendens.....am I right? |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 20 Feb 2004 9:54 pm
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Good post. My MSA has 35 bellcranks on it, I am only using 24 ,so each rod has plenty for any tuning I can come up with.
So I don't have to pull a crossrod to change a tuning pull.....al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Palmer
From:
New Bern,NC,USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 4:56 am
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| Mullen bell cranhs work fine on anything with 5/16" cross shafts. Jack |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 5:32 am
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I have started an email dialog with Jerry Fessendon about his parts. The basic design looks like what I want.
But I guess I will look at the Mullen parts to to see what they are like.
I did have a general design in my head that's a bit different.
One big issue is not having to pull out tons of rods AND the shaft to add bellcranks to the right knees.
The design I saw on Jerry's site show them slipping into place.
Especially for trying experimental tunings etc this is a major plus.
If in 1-2 hours I can be a hybrid E9 or a E13 or something else,
and know it isn't 5 hours + of work to change it back again.
This is a big plus. |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 6:36 am
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Hey Al Marcus, wonder how that happened? 
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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 8:12 am
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| DD, if the Fessenden bellcranks are a perfect fit, then you may have to go with them. The Zums fit a slightly smaller cross shaft. But if they would fit, I prefer the new Zum design. The Fessie cranks have the allen screw that holds them on right under where the rods run, so it is hard to get to without removing rods. DS, yes, theoretically all you have to do is unscrew the nylon tuner to slip a rod to another slot in the bellcrank. But the bent rod ends are too tight a fit for some slots. You have to bend the crank to get the rod in or out. Then the next slot doesn't fit. At the same time, the rods sometimes slip out while you are working on the underside, and you don't realize it until you turn the guitar over and try to play. The crank material is too mallable. If you tighten the allen screw a little too tight on the crosshaft, it bends the crank so it will not slip on and off the shaft or slide along it. The new Zum crank solved all these problems for me. Finally, Zum has 6 slots in the same space as 5 on the Fessie. Carters, GFIs and Emmons have even more positions. But the Carter allen screw is directly under the rods. Don't know about the others. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 21 February 2004 at 08:16 AM.] |
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Duane Marrs
From:
Madison, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 11:40 am
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| We now offer a replacement bc puller that is superior to the Sho-Bud pot metal. It also has 9 adjustment holes and a rod clip, which eliminates the need for the additional part. These are the same puller we use, but broach the hole for the hex shaft. A sqaure shaft can accept an open ended puller that is easy to get on and off. The problem is that they are very weak and break often, since many are stamped. We have beefed up the tapped portion that the screw goes into. Our new pullers are working out great. We like the round shafts for better tilt and action adjustment. They certainly DO NOT slip when we dull the cross-shaft. The Emmons shafts cannot be removed once they are in the guitar, unless they are cut. We have a photo of our puller at www.duanemarrs.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 12:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...a bellcrank can't be built like a box wrench, open on one side... |
Son, a box wrench isn't open on one side...that's an "open-end wrench".  Some steels have different shaped cross-rods, but the real problem is steels still have the traditional design that was developed a half century ago. That is, they are filled with rods for each pull that go to each pedal cross-rod. What we should have by now is a steel that has one rod going from each pedal to the changer, and a more elaborate changer that would allow all the necessary adjustments to be made in one place. I just can't see that there's any good reason for a modern steel to have four rods going from the cross-rod to the changer to actuate four different string changes.
(Post script...I've never worked on a Fender PS-210, and I don't know how they were as far as pull-timing, but Fender had such a system in this guitar. Too bad they didn't make more than 20 of 'em.) [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 February 2004 at 12:30 PM.] |
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manny escobar
From:
portsmouth,r.i. usa
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 6:37 pm
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Attn: Al Marcus.
Another way to avoid removing 3/8 round crossrods, on an old MSA, is with a special puller that is T shaped, not L shaped.(Picture a T upside down.) My design is two piece using two screws. Around 1985 I machined about a dozen. They have been on my guitar ever since. Manny Escobar. |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 11:09 pm
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Hi Manny-Very intersting. I would like to hear more about that. I sent you an Emial and it bounced back.........al
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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2004 8:17 am
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| My undercarriage has GFI style six hole bell cranks, and the bottoms are as you've described: an open sided box, with a screw that allows you to slide or remove the bellcrank without pulling the crossbar out or even removing any rods but the one on the bellcrank you want to move. the rods themselves don't have a bend in the end. They have a brass collar and set-screw that passes through the hole in the crank, the rod threads through the other side, and the set screw holds the rod in place. It was built by Roy Thomas, and the crossrods are square in cross-section. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2004 12:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| Son, a box wrench isn't open on one side...that's an "open-end wrench". |
Donny is correct. In the photo below you will see some "box" end bellcranks, some "open-end" bell cranks, several bushing "collars" to accomadate crossbars, and different types of 5/16 crossbars.
Beginning upper left and proceeding clockwise around the bellcranks, they are:
1. 5/16" hexagonal "box-end" Sho-Bud pot metal type (5 hole) bellcrank.
2. 5/16" hexagonal "box-end" Excel 4 hole bellcrank.
3. 5/16" hexagonal partial "box-end" Excel 5 hole bellcrank.
4. 5/16" "open-end" square cast metal type (not sure where this came from) 7 hole bellcrank.
5. 5/16" "open-end" square Emmons 14 hole bellcrank.
6. 5/16""open-end" square Emmons 4 hole bellcrank, with swivel.
The 4 hole box-end Excel bellcranks require crossrod removal to install. They are ONLY used in certain applications such as pedal cranks on crossrods. This is ok since these are rarely if ever changed.
The 5 hole partial box-end Excel bellcranks are unique and at first appear not to work. But thru a clever geometric design, it does work great. Mitsuo is just one more japanese genious when it comes to mechanics. These bellcranks do not require crossrod removal to install and uninstall.
Also pictured are some other clever gizmos Mitsuo uses. Three collars All unigue in their design and application.
From left to right:
1. A stop collar for Excel's hexagonal crossbars. YES it fits perfectly and locks solid onto a hexagon rod. It takes a moment to discover how it goes on. And betcha nickle you wuold try and put it on wrong at first
2. A hexagonal to round bushing that allows hex crossbars to be supported by a center rail (yet still revolve) in SuperB model PSG's. Truly a blessing I found out.
3. Excel's original collar to allow its round shape to fit around a groove milled around a hex crossbar; to give support by a center rail as in item 2. The secret is the nylon bushing is split on the diagonal. Most clever.
The 4 crossbar shafts in the photo are:
1. Nickle plated steel 5/16" square as used on an Emmons' LeGrande. Both their 4 and 14 hole bellcranks can be installed and removed without touching this crossrod.
2. The same crossbar purchased at Home Depot which is probably cold rolled steel zinc plated and WILL tarnish, then rust in short order.
3. Stainless Steel 5/16" hexagonal crossbar which I tried to use to eliminate the double lower problems that all Universals have. It did not help enough to go with the idea! Which amazes me.
4. Aluminum 5/16" hexagonal crossbar as used in all Excel SuperB modes. I at first felt aluminum was not a good choice until I realized that a center rail support makes them ideal. Especially for milling, drilling and weight.
Note the split bushing I slid on it. In an actual installation, a narrow round groove would be milled around the rod at a strategic place. Then the nylon bushing would slide until it snapped into this groove.
The outside nylon is just a tad larger in diameter than the point to point dimension of the hex bar. This allows the bushing to go into a hole in a center rail for better support. It is slick. However the "hex to round" bushing will probably do away with these on his latest guitars. Saves a step.
I will be happy to take close up views and send them by email to anyone who wishes, or if enough requests I will post them here.
carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 06 March 2004 at 12:27 PM.] |
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