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Topic: A New Pedal Change, Trick or Treat? |
Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 31 Oct 2014 6:39 pm |
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I added a new change to my guitar a year or so ago, that I appreciate more and more as time goes by. Usually when you make a change to one thing you lose something else along the way. I've found no drawbacks to this change, and it has been a big piece of the puzzle in letting me play what I want on the E9 neck.
So what is it? On my RKL I lower 6 and 9 a half tone. That's it! Very simple. I was looking for a way to play a minor 7th with a flat 5, or a half diminished, out of the same position it lays on the C6th neck, which is up a minor 3rd. (Pedal 6, strings 8, 6, 5, 3) So on the E9th neck it's this pedal and strings 9, 6, 5, 4. It's also a A9 chord. Along with this pedal, other pedals work with it like lowering the E's, lowering the B's, the A pedal.
While I could get this chord before I couldn't get to it from what preceeded it, or couldn't get out of it into the next the way I wanted. This has made playing tunes like Witchcraft much easier. The longer I have this change it just seems like a obvious choice. Most of the time when I try something new on my guitar I'll use it for a while and then get tired of it. At this point I can't imagine being without it.
So, is this a trick or a treat? |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2014 7:41 pm
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| A treat for sure- thanks Randy! |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2014 10:15 pm
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When Randy Beavers speaks, I listen. I will be checking it out about tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing Randy!
Jerry
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Oct 2014 11:34 pm
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I get these notes with a more standard copedent, but it's a little more work.
The 6th string lower (G# to G) is the popular split with pedal 2 (G# to A, the "B" pedal) plus the lever that lowers G# to F#, which I have on LKR. I call it the "G" lever.
The 9th string lower to C# is usually on the lever that lowers the 2nd string, the "D" lever. I have that on RKR.
So to get the m7b5 chord position "same as on C6th", I use (P2+LKR)+RKR, in other words ((B+G split)+D). I use those levers for lots of other things too. I wouldn't want to do without either of them. If I played a lot of E9th jazz, I might want those 2 changes on a pedal for convenience, in addition to the more standard levers that I already have. Maybe it would make a good "0 pedal". 
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Gary Lee Gimble
From:
Fredericksburg, VA.
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Posted 1 Nov 2014 4:04 am
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| Quote: |
| So, is this a trick or a treat? |
Randy, how 'bout plating up a sound bite to a popular real book ditty? This way, an honest assessment may be rendered to said trick or treat. Of course, opinions are like exit ramps, they're subjective to a plus or minus 80+%.
_________________
Assorted gear and a set of hands...
https://www.facebook.com/garythelee
https://www.youtube.com/user/ZumEmm |
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Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 1 Nov 2014 5:14 am
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B0B, I have the lever where I lower 9 and 2 on my RKR so I couldn't get to that other right lever.
For the folks who only lower their 6th a whole tone on a knee with tunable splits, you can add the 9th string lower then use the B pedal with it. Myself, I only lowered my 6th string a half tone for a couple of reasons. I use a wound 6th string for the stability of tuning and tone, and when I really thought about it, I'd say 90% of the time I lowered the 6th I would split it with the B pedal anyway. So I just started lowering it the half and learned how to do those other licks some other way. (Think how Lloyd does it.)
As an example, the first chord of the "B" section of Killer Joe is E minor 7 b5. This chord lays on the 3rd fret on strings 9, 6, 5, 4, with the root in the bass.
I had been wanting this basic C6th chord voicing on the E neck for a long time. This way it is very easy to play. And maybe more important, is how you can get into and out of it to the next chord. Also, the string grouping 9, 8, 6, and 5 is a natural grip. It just depends what melody note you need on top.
B0B, I can see no reason why this wouldn't work well as a "0" pedal. It would let you use the other knees and "A" pedal with it. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 1 Nov 2014 5:39 am
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Lowering 9 & 6 string a halfstep is one of the moves I really love on the E9
I have those changes on two different knee levers tho.
RKL lower 9 D-C# & 2 D#-D-C#
LKL(front) lower 6 G# G
My first Pedalsteel didnt have 2 LKL(front/rear) so I got around it by using half A pedal when playing strings 9 6 5.
Also possible play strings 9 8 6 5 w half pedal A and E's to F
When using the half pedal method you find IV9 I7 V9 next to eachother and 6 frets up IV7 I9 V7 next to eachother. The 9th voicing have no root ( 3rd 5th b7 9th ) but it sounds totally cool anyways.
I still use the half pedal and E's to F for strings 9 8 6 5 sometimes because it sounds/feels different.
B.Erlandsen |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2014 8:20 am
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| Randy Beavers wrote: |
As an example, the first chord of the "B" section of Killer Joe is E minor 7 b5. This chord lays on the 3rd fret on strings 9, 6, 5, 4, with the root in the bass. |
Yes, very cool.
| Randy Beavers wrote: |
I had been wanting this basic C6th chord voicing on the E neck for a long time. This way it is very easy to play.
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Here are 5 other easy ways that I use for the same voicing on E9. The last one uses low G# string which some of you don't have yet.
| Randy Beavers wrote: |
And maybe more important, is how you can get into and out of it to the next chord.
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I agree 100%. Usualy the m7b5 is a ii chord of a minor. You may play the ii V7 i progression (in your case C#m5b5 F#7 Bm), but very often you just use ii V without the i. So on the pedal steel it is nice do this without re-attacking:
but I don't see how you can do that with your pedal. You probably have a knee lever to lower 5 B to A#, but to move the G to F# you would probably have to mute string 6 and pick string 7.
Or (assuming you can keep 9 lowered) you could do this and move the bar:
Or most likely, don't worry about the voice that moves from G to F#, and just mute string 6 and use only 3 notes in the F# chord. This usually works just fine:
| Randy Beavers wrote: |
Also, the string grouping 9, 8, 6, and 5 is a natural grip.
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They are all natural if you get used to them.
| Randy Beavers wrote: |
It just depends what melody note you need on top.
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Yes, exactly, and also on what other melody notes (non-chordal) you can add in that position. |
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Peter Nylund
From:
Finland
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 12:42 am
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I also put a somewhat similar change on my guitar a couple of months ago. Since I have the usual 9th string lower on my RKR and my 6th string lower on my RKL I wasn't able to use them at the same time. So, I added a 9th string lower on the lever that lowers the E's to Eb, and it works quite ok. The 6th string lower and split with the B-pedal and lowering the ninth gives a nice passing chord (even to a non-jazz guy like me).
Peter
_________________
I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 3:16 am
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| I like it too. Treat for sure. Thanks Randy. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 7:10 am
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I'm goin' in to try it..
Thanks for the tip Randy |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 10:52 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
Here are 5 other easy ways that I use for the same voicing on E9. The last one uses low G# string which some of you don't have yet.
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Earnest, I'm confused by your second example -- I can figure it out on 2 - 6- 8 -10 but not 2 - 5 - 6 - 10.
What a great thread. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 11:16 am
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| Jim Robbins wrote: |
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
Here are 5 other easy ways that I use for the same voicing on E9. The last one uses low G# string which some of you don't have yet.
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Earnest, I'm confused by your second example -- I can figure it out on 2 - 6- 8 -10 but not 2 - 5 - 6 - 10.
What a great thread. |
ooops You are right. The F would be on string 8. (I have the F on string 7 as well). <strike>I just did that to see if anybody is paying attention.</strike> Good to know that someone is actually reading this nurdy stuff.
That voicing is nice because the Bm7b5 slides so nicely and easily into E7. Just release the F lever and B pedal, and you have a nice iim7 - V7 change.
The downside is that the F note is usually tempered low and the A tempered high, so the minor 3rd between F and A is very wide and yucky. It works better with the F an octave higher, so you can slant the bar a little to raise the F note a few cents. On my setup I can get the F on a knee lever lowering the F# string so I can sweeten the interval by leaving the knee a little short of the stop. That lets me use the F in a D minor chord (Bm7b5 is just D minor with B bass, or Dm6, anyway.) |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 11:35 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| I use (P2+LKR)+RKR, in other words ((B+G split)+D). |
Math for musicians, nice! |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 12:33 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
So to get the m7b5 chord position "same as on C6th", I use (P2+LKR)+RKR, in other words ((B+G split)+D). |
What notes are you playing? (on open strings) |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2014 2:23 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
So to get the m7b5 chord position "same as on C6th", I use (P2+LKR)+RKR, in other words ((B+G split)+D). |
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
What notes are you playing? (on open strings) |
On C6th it's A C Eb G (strings 8 7 6 5) = Am7b5
On E9th it's C# E G B (strings 9 8 6 5) = C#m7b5
_________________
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 3 Nov 2014 9:43 am
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This idea seems similar to the "Bobbe Seymore Z lever", except in that concept the G note is on string 7.
With regard to moving smoothly to other chord positions, is it advantageous having the G on 6 instead of 7?
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 6:57 am
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Scott, I'd say this is totally different than raising the 7th string. Having the half step between the minor 3rd and 9th, as it is on strings 6 and 7 with the 6th lowered a half, is much more useful to me. I have so many combinations of things I play with that change, and I've never wanted for anything I could get if those were reversed. I can't speak for everybody, just what appeals to me.
As Doug pointed out, there are many other ways to get these same notes. For example: strings 1, 5, 6, 7, and 8 with pedals A and B with the E's lowered. This is 2 frets below where my first example was given. Tuning temperment is a little sour unless you crook the bar or have a compensator on the 1st string, which I don't. However for me the "bulk" of my chord work on the E9th is played around strings 4 through 9. This pedal allows me to play these things on these strings, around the positions of what preceeds it, and comes after, and it is in tune.
I only use 2 finger picks and a thumb pick. These grips work for me, where the 4 note spread out grip does not. To get around this at times I play the 3 most prominant notes, then pick up the 4th note. With this pedal and its combinations, there are rakes where all the notes can be played at once like on the C6th, for us 2 pick guys.
My post really wasn't intended for the universal tuning, but for the standard setup E9th players looking to get more with a minimum of change. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 8:41 am
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For those who don't know Randy, I just want to point out that he is a master of jazz on the E9th. I've never heard anyone else pull so many rich jazz chords out of the copedent. In my mind, his recommendation of this new lever is carries a lot of weight.
Thanks for bringing this new idea to the forum, Randy.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 10:27 am
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Randy, thanks for the response. I plotted this on paper and I think I am seeing how this makes a lot of sense.
Assume you want to play 3 notes against a C#m7b5 and assuming you want a melody note on top of that.
If you have to pick only 2 notes to best outline the chord they would probably be the 3rd and the b5, which are on strings 8 and 6. Then the pedals and levers can give you high G# F# E D# C# B A# against that.
In this simplistic example, then you can slide to another position for the next chord leaving 8 and 6 ringing as a minor third with the option of letting off the lever and having a major third interval between 8 and 6.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Johnny Baldwin
From:
Long Beach, California, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 11:26 am
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| The "Franklin Pedal", now the "Beaver Pedal". What'll they think of next. Doh! |
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Scott Truax
From:
Florida
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 1:52 pm Trick or Treat !
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Randy,
For me, this is a HUGE TREAT !
I was at the TN Steel Guitar Assoc. Super jam last month and had the good fortune to hear your set.
And, I was blown away by the Jazz and up-tempo Standards coming from your S-10, E-9th. Zum.
When I got back from the show I emailed you to ask
if you'd share with me what the changes were on your
guitar that allowed you to play those styles.
I appreciate you having taken the time to do that !!
Gary is putting those changes on my new Ritt now.
Forum friends; if you ever have the opportunity to
get to a steel show where Randy is playing....
you'll be VERY happy you did.
Thank you Randy for sharing this information with us.
Scott Truax |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 4 Nov 2014 4:26 pm
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
ooops You are right. The F would be on string 8. (I have the F on string 7 as well). <strike>I just did that to see if anybody is paying attention.</strike> Good to know that someone is actually reading this nurdy stuff. |
Thanks. If anyone is paying attention to nerdy stuff (ahem, I believe the proper spelling is with an "e", not to be nerdy about it) it's pedal steel players.
The resolution to that open voiced V (and then I) is beautiful, but it is a stretch for my right hand. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 7 Nov 2014 2:10 pm
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To which knee lever is this added?
Can it be added to my current set up or should I add a new lever ?>
Since it works with E lowers and B lowers ..
My lever set up is
LKL raises 1-2 7
LKV lower B >Bb
LKR lowers 2 & 9
Both my E changes are on the right |
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