| Author |
Topic: Adjustable return springs changing throw of raises? |
Paul Hoaglin
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 9:24 am |
|
I just installed adjustable return springs on the E9 neck of my MSA Classic D-10, and I'm finding adjusting them to be completely non-intuitive and affecting aspects of the changer that I did not foresee. Most notably, all of the raises have been affected dramatically. It appears that, the lower the tension of the return spring, the less the same length pulls raise the pitch. When I first installed the new springs, I adjusted them all visually to be at what seemed like an average medium tension, and every single raise came up flat. The pitch of the lowers was generally unaffected except in cases where the spring tension wasn't enough to bring the string back to neutral, and slight tightening solved those issues.
The biggest problem in all of this is that now all of my carefully timed pulls are all way off, and in some cases, trying to adjust them closer to how they were results in my maxing out the available spring tension (which also results in an undesirable "sproing" noise as the springs rub against the edge of the mounting bracket during the lowers, and the friction of which may also be affecting things adversely).
The other side effect is that, when I raise a note and then lower it in a smooth move (think the beginning of the "Look At Us" solo for a good example, or making the smooth E-to-F lever transition in the A+F pedal position), the lower ends up sharp, even with the springs at max tension. I was occasionally having this problem with certain troublesome strings, like my 2nd string, with the old springs, but now it appears to be affecting all strings that both raise and lower (which in my copedent is most of them).
I've never had a steel with adjustable return springs before, so all of this is new and bewildering to me. Can anyone explain the physics of what's going on and/or have any suggestions as to how to deal with either problem? ("Go back to the stock springs" is a perfectly viable answer if that's what you have for me.) My uneducated top-of-my-head theory is that the stock springs were a lot stronger than the new ones, and that stronger return springs prevent the lower finger from moving as much during a raise, thereby allow the raises to go farther and raise the note sharper, but I have no way to test my theory besides cranking the current springs all the way, but that doesn't solve the problem, and it sorta defeats the purpose of having adjustable return springs in the first place. Thoughts? Comments? Inquisitions? (The changer is fairly well-lubed with Tri-Flow, by the by, and I broke it down and de-gunked it a couple of years ago, so I don't think that's contributing much here, if anything....) |
|
|
 |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 9:36 am
|
|
Some of the issues may have the same cause, others a different cause.
The one thought that crosses my mind is that the springs may not have settled into perfect linearity under cycling tension and are exhibiting a bit of hysterisis. Just like the way a string needs retensioned a few times in early usage.
In terms of adjusting spring tension, I think the rule of thumb is the minimum tension you need to have to keep the lower finger from pulling away from the stop when performing a raise...and then add one turn. Putting everything at the same average tension isn't the right protocol.
These are shoot from the hip ideas, nothing more, i'd think a guy like Jim palenscar would know exactly how to handle this.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 27 Oct 2014 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 9:39 am
|
|
I'll assume that the lowering finger is moving along with the raises, since nothing else seems to match your symptoms.
A return spring should be strong enough to hold the lower finger to the stop bar during raises. The easiest way to check this is to put the guitar in the case (or if you have an inversion stand, use that) and operate the pedals and knees. If, f'rinstance, you see the 5th or 10th string lower finger leave the stop bar as you activate the A pedal, your return spring is weak. Not good.
Return springs both return lowers to pitch, but they also hold the lower finger to the stop bar as a string raises. There's a balance of tension to be struck and both too weak and too loose will cause problems.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 9:47 am Re: Adjustable return springs changing throw of raises?
|
|
| Paul Hoaglin wrote: |
trying to adjust them closer to how they were results in my maxing out the available spring tension
|
It definitely sounds like you need a stronger spring. The spring must be tight enough to hold the lower bar in place when you raise pitch. In fact it should be tight enough to pull the lower bar all the way back to its stop if you engage both raise & lower, then release the pedal that lowered.
| Paul Hoaglin wrote: |
undesirable "sproing" noise as the springs rub against the edge of the mounting bracket during the lowers, and the friction of which may also be affecting things adversely).
|
Sounds like you need a narrower spring as well.
You can probably find what you need here:
http://www.centuryspring.com/
They have tens of thousands of springs! I measured the forces I needed and found what I needed at Century.
For me it helped a lot to install longer springs than the originals. |
|
|
|
Paul Hoaglin
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 10:13 am
|
|
Lane, you are correct - I just observed two "raise only" raises doing their thing under medium tension, and they both significantly moved the lower finger as well.
Earnest (Doug?), the unit is Michael Yahl's special spring anchor, and so the springs are custom threaded. I'm not sure I have the tools (or skill!) needed to add threading to a prefab spring, but you're right, a different size and tension spring (shorter and higher, respectively) would make a difference and probably do the trick. I could ask Michael if he has any tricks up his sleeve. I've read that longer return springs are helpful, but since the rubbing issue is a result of the length of the spring, it looks like I have a limit for length, unless I want to start messing with modifying the lower fingers.... 
Does anyone else think that stronger spring tension will help the secondary issue of the raise-to-lower coming back sharp? I understand hysteresis in theory, and/but I can also physically push the raise finger back with my finger (the one on my hand, not the guitar) and get it back in tune. Hmm.... |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 10:25 am
|
|
Paul, what problem were you trying to solve by fitting adjusters?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 11:02 am
|
|
| Paul Hoaglin wrote: |
| a different size and tension spring (shorter and higher, respectively) would make a difference and probably do the trick. I could ask Michael if he has any tricks up his sleeve. I've read that longer return springs are helpful, but since the rubbing issue is a result of the length of the spring, it looks like I have a limit for length, unless I want to start messing with modifying the lower fingers.... : |
I think longer springs are better because they pull more uniformly as you extend them. A short spring pulls much less at the point where the pitch is barely lowered, and that is where you need it the most.
The short spring then pulls a lot harder at the max lower, and that is where you need it the least, and where the hard push on the knee lever makes it difficult to play the guitar.
Here are some pictures of how I got it to work on GFI and Sho-Bud:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=194454 |
|
|
|
Paul Hoaglin
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 11:11 am
|
|
Thanks for the link, Doug - I can see how the longer bracket would help (as long as the guitar still fits in its case!). The threaded inserts sound like something I might be able to manage, too. Honestly hadn't thought of that.
Ian, I was hoping to be able to fine tune the one or two "trouble" strings, primarily the 2nd and 6th strings (sometimes the 4th as well), which didn't always return consistently or behave consistently when either split or raised and then lowered.
Thanks for all of your suggestions - I'm in touch with Michael as well and hopefully we'll come up with something that works well.... |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 5:02 pm
|
|
I don't see adjustable springs as a big advantage or necessary addition. As you've discovered, they're just one more thing that can get out of whack when you least expect it. 
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. |
|
|
|
Paul Hoaglin
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 7:11 pm
|
|
Well, in fairness, it wasn't exactly broke, but the stock springs weren't working right on every string, so I did feel that I had to try to do something to "fix" it.
I still like Earnest's super long extender bracket idea! Michael may be thinking along similar lines.... |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 27 Oct 2014 8:10 pm
|
|
| Paul Hoaglin wrote: |
Ian, I was hoping to be able to fine tune the one or two "trouble" strings, primarily the 2nd and 6th strings (sometimes the 4th as well), which didn't always return consistently or behave consistently when either split or raised and then lowered.
|
Yeah, in the end you have to treat each string differently, and on some strings I find that I have to leave it just as tight as it used to be. But overall it is quite a bit better on those 2 guitars of mine. |
|
|
|
