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Topic: -1" on front and +2" on rear |
Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 11:45 am |
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I keep thinking about this and just had to ask. Has anyone seen or done this to their guitar. Putting 1" shorter legs and rods up front and adding 2" or even 3" longer legs in the rear to effectively angle the fretboard down and away? Bi-lateral carpal tunnel surgery and pick hand angle is making me think about such things.
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JusticeJudge |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 12:01 pm
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Both Billy Phelps and Rick Schmidt angle their guitars forward like that like. I'm not sure they use short legs & rods, what I do know is that they both play the fire out of 'em that way.
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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 12:07 pm
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I'd think that, unless you're pretty tall, that sounds like an extreme angle. I'd take the guitar with you the next time you see the therapist/whoever. That seems really prone to "hump" the wrist.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 12:08 pm
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So, it has been done! Nothing new under the sun I feel. Thanks Rick. I need to find some footage on these two fellas. There has to be some kind of cool factor in a set up like this, too. Sort of akin to wearing a LesPaul long and low.
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JusticeJudge |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 2:56 pm
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| why not just extend your rear legs a bunch (it's free) and see if you like it?! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 4:29 pm
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| I tilted my Kline Uni a bit. I a little over 6'2"..... or I was! It made for the perfect angle for my wrist. Don't think I could have done it on a D-10 though. Maybe. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Oct 2014 9:48 pm
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I would be surprised if anyone tilted their guitar as much as you want to do. Like Lane said, that's going to be one heck of an extreme hump to make your hand be able to pick and block. And as Chris said, just raise your back legs to where you want them.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 5:14 am
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Here's why I said bring your guitar to your physical therapist/other medical: when I got back into playing after a ten year break (stupid trucking), I could only play about half an hour without pain and numbness. My chiropractor showed up at a gig and noticed my wincing and massaging my wrists near the end of the set. He scrutinized my posture and setup, and suggested I lower the guitar and scoot over to the left a bit. The relief was immediate.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 5:55 am
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Beyond all the ergonomics and reasons to tilt your guitar forward. Tilted like that, Physics may decide that your guitar is front heavy. It won't take much to send it crashing front first onto the floor. I wouldn't over do it, if it were my guitar. Here are some photos of Rick Schmidt in action, note the tilt.
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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe.
Last edited by Rick Barnhart on 6 Oct 2014 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 9:25 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Here's why I said bring your guitar to your physical therapist/other medical: when I got back into playing after a ten year break (stupid trucking), I could only play about half an hour without pain and numbness. My chiropractor showed up at a gig and noticed my wincing and massaging my wrists near the end of the set. He scrutinized my posture and setup, and suggested I lower the guitar and scoot over to the left a bit. The relief was immediate. |
With the problems I have been having with my picking hand (I am basically losing the strength in my right hand, especially the middle finger, which is now real hard for me to control), I have thought about doing this. Every time I try, I scoot back into the position I have sat in for 40 years. It's hard to change after all that time.
Best of luck to you in finding a comfortable position for you. I don't think slanting the guitar the way you mentioned is the answer.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 12:39 pm
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Ok, this is what I was talking about. Great to see my thought in action! Thank you Rick for posting those pictures. I am not alone in the idea of attacking the guitar at a different angle than what is considered the norm.
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JusticeJudge |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 12:56 pm Re: -1
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| Frank De Vincenzo wrote: |
| I keep thinking about this and just had to ask. Has anyone seen or done this to their guitar. Putting 1" shorter legs and rods up front and adding 2" or even 3" longer legs in the rear to effectively angle the fretboard down and away? Bi-lateral carpal tunnel surgery and pick hand angle is making me think about such things. |
Well, that might be great...if you sat on a bar stool. But personally, I think wrist problems are caused more by stress and strain than by angles. If you have a relaxed playing position, and aren't constantly tensing your muscles, chances for stress injury are far less. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2014 12:26 pm
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Frank, I think you have valid reasons for your ergonomic concerns about picking-hand angle, since you mention having to undergo double carpal tunnel surgery (ouch!). You don’t mention your height, so I’ll just tell you what I did—this should work regardless of your height. If your steel guitar has adjustable-height legs (as do all but the most basic student models), you should not need to purchase new guitar legs to adjust the angle of the guitar top.
There are several variables you need to take into account:
1. Adjust your seat height: The first step is to adjust your seat height. If you’re seat height is too low, and your elbows are lower than the guitar when seated in the playing position, you will be arching your wrist—which is not good for the muscles and the nerves in the carpal tunnel in your wrist. I adjust the seat height so that my thighs are approximately parallel with the floor—the usual ergonomic advice for typing, etc..
I used a drummer’s “throne†for a long time because the seat height is adjustable, but they are heavy and clumsy to carry to gigs. About five years ago I purchased a Quake Industries Stag ATS (All-Terrain Seat) designed for hunting; it is very light, easy to carry, comfortable and the seat height is adjustable in one-inch increments: http://www.quakeinc.com/Store-View.php?id=338
2. Adjust under-guitar leg clearance: I’m 6’2â€, so many years ago I put 1†extension “lifters†on my pedal rods and a 1†spacer on the legs supporting the pedal-bar so my legs had sufficient clearance under the bottom of my steel guitar to move around.
3. Adjust the rear guitar legs for optimal ergonomics: Because I’m tall, my elbow was higher than the steel; my forearm, wrist, and hand were not in a straight line when in playing position. This caused me to bend the top of my wrist back slightly towards me—not very ergonomic! So I simply raised the back legs slightly with the adjustable leg clutch until my forearm could rest gently on the back neck; my forearm, wrist, and hand were now in a straight line—and very relaxed. (BTW I have a D-10 steel guitar.)
I never measured the difference between the front and rear legs until just a few minutes ago. The rear legs are ~1-1/2†longer than the front legs. That difference in height is almost unnoticeable, but is very comfortable for me.
4. Adjust the pedal height: I like my pedals to bottom out about 1†or so above the floor for good ankle ergonomics. Once the above steps are completed, use the pedal rod adjustments so that all of your pedals bottom out at a height above the floor that is comfortable for you.
The point I’m trying to make is that everyone’s body measures out differently; there is no “one size fits all†dimension for guitar leg height.
Lane makes a good point about centering your body; I usually aim for about fret 13. I got sloppy for several weeks recently and sat too far to the right, and got painful cramps in the adductor muscles of my left thigh. It took me a while to figure out what had caused that—and I had to do a lot of painful stretching to uncramp my leg muscles.
I hope this is helpful.
-Dave |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 11:36 am
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I suffer from carpal tunnel, arthritis and I have a lot of wriest, arm and shoulder pain on both sides.
I tried the steel tilted forward and it put strain on my back, arms and shoulders because I had to extented ny arms out farther to reach the strings.
I know it sounds strange but I changed and went the opposite direction and I raised the front until the steel was leaning back. This way I could keep my elbows to my sides (the most relaxing position possible) and my arm and wrist would be straight from my elbow to the tips of my fingers parallel to the strings and I sat in a more comfortable position for my back. I sit and play relaxed and pain free and as a plus
I sit up straighter now and I can see my bar position better.
I didn't change anything except add a piece of PVC pipe to the front legs under the pedal bar and raised the front up 2" and the tilt actually raised the back of the steel 3/4 of an inch so I lowered the back legs to just where my legs went under the steel without touching.
I adjusted the pedals down a little and they work fine without having to add extenders in fact the angle of the pedals are a plus in that the line up with my foot better.
I have found absolutely no downside to this!
i really think the only reason folks lean their steel forward is that they think it looks cool!
here is a picture, I'm leaning a little to the right but when sit up straight my forearm and hand are parallel to the strings.
Last edited by Bo Legg on 7 Oct 2014 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Joe Naylor
From:
Avondale, Arizona, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 11:43 am McClung
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John McClung is more drastic that those - I kid him that he does not water to stand on his steel - It is like 4" difference - but standard on the front legs.
He also has about 10 pedals and 12 knees too.
Joe
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Joe Naylor, Avondale, AZ (Phoenix) Announcer/Emcee owner www.steelseat.com *** OFFERING SEATS AND Effects cases with or without legs and other stuff ****** -Desert Rose Guitar S-10, Life Member of the Arizona Carport Pickers Assoc., Southwest Steel Guitar Assoc., Texas Steel Guitar Assoc., GA Steel Guitar Assoc., KS Steel Guitar Assoc. (Asleep at the Steel) tag line willed to me by a close late friend RIP |
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Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 12:37 pm
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All I want is to be able to play with the least amount of discomfort possible. I have just about 75% of the feeling back in my hands and fingers a year and a half after the surgery. I even play a little six string now and then. I can't thank all you good fellas enough for weighing in on this thread. Come heck or high water, I will be a pedal steel guitarist!
Frank
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JusticeJudge |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 7:40 pm
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Curly Chalker had the front of the steel higher than the back....
It is a question of what works for you.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2014 9:21 am
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Photo by Nathan York
I discovered years ago, quite by accident, that tipping my steel forward a few degrees made playing more comfortable, keeping my wrist unbent and hand level with my forearm; and greatly improved my palm blocking, not quite sure why that works. My buddy Rick Schmidt has a much more radical "running downhill" angle, but for him it's primarily to accommodate the 6-string midi guitar he keeps on his lap for many gigs.
Contrary to what Joe Naylor said, that Mullen D-12 has "only" 9 pedals and 10 levers. BTW, Rick is also a monster on his Dekley D-12, quite a different copedent than mine. He's one of the most under-rated steelers in SoCal and the world, imho.
All you need to do is extend the rear legs, and I'd advise you experiment with angles, see if a downhill stance helps your playing. Do what works best for you. The policy statement I give to all my students: There's nothing written in stone for pedal steel!
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▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Joe Naylor
From:
Avondale, Arizona, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2014 11:21 am Thanks John
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Oops I had forgotten the number of pedals and knee levers you had - I just knew it was a lot.
Anyway that is a great explanation.
Joe
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Joe Naylor, Avondale, AZ (Phoenix) Announcer/Emcee owner www.steelseat.com *** OFFERING SEATS AND Effects cases with or without legs and other stuff ****** -Desert Rose Guitar S-10, Life Member of the Arizona Carport Pickers Assoc., Southwest Steel Guitar Assoc., Texas Steel Guitar Assoc., GA Steel Guitar Assoc., KS Steel Guitar Assoc. (Asleep at the Steel) tag line willed to me by a close late friend RIP |
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Frank De Vincenzo
From:
The Garden State
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Posted 10 Oct 2014 9:09 am
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Thanks for weighing in on this thread John. When Mr. Naylor mentioned your playing style I was interested in what you had to say about this set up. All in all, it seems the respondents all agree, do what feels right.
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JusticeJudge |
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