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Topic: Tuning a Half Step Down ?? |
Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2014 7:14 pm |
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My little band of misfits worked with a new vocalist tonite.
This guy says he always tunes a half step down.
So we all did as he asked.
However it really hurt my tone and it seemed all my pedals were out of tune..
I never really thought about it but it seems that pitch changes over the range of string tension is not a linear function.
Is that actually what I experienced or was something else going on..
_________________
Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Amarillo,Tx
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Posted 30 Sep 2014 8:02 pm
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Kevin, I played with a band that tuned so I retuned down, no problem. What didn't make since was that they capoed back up. Go figure. 
_________________
Keep pickin', Larry |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2014 8:33 pm
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| I did a cd for a guy who tuned down. So I did too, as there were so many songs. Tuned the Kline down, and readjusted the changer pulls and lowers. Ya gotta do that! |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Sep 2014 8:59 pm
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| Cause playing something at the 11th fret didn't sound as good as playing open. Depends on what fits the tune. |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 3:06 am
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So you did have to retune all the pedals and knee levers ??
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 3:39 am
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Yes. All changes will overshoot their marks, since a slacker string will react faster/farther than a tighter one.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 5:56 am
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Poco played everything a half step down.
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Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 6:09 am
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I'd just quit.
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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night. |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 6:49 am
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Is what the one guy is putting out worth retuning everyone else's instrument or is it more valuable to tell him to suck it up as a musician, tune up and learn to transpose better. If it's just for the purpose of fitting his voice then it shouldn't take much vocal training for him to be able to achieve a semitone higher.... I guess some people aren't blessed with a 5 octave range, though.
Is it cheating to play Stevie Ray Vaughan not tuned down a half step? Maybe. Do I do it anyway? Yes.
But to answer your question, I believe Zane summarized it well.
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 6:59 am
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I'm not good enough on steel or valuable enough to the group to tell anybody else they need to suck it up..
Soooo... I guess I'll retune my pedals and knees...
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 7:08 am
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Either retune or play at different frets.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 7:37 am
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More and more bands are doing that these days, for vocal ease and a different resonance. Some instruments sound better tuned down a bit, for instance, it's surprising how different some resonator guitars sound tuned to D versus G, and lap steels tuned to D versus E...
Among other bands I've played with Zac Brown tunes to Eb. I always just mentally transpose, playing a half step flat. The last time I sat in with Zac, he had five or six guitarists onstage all playing different chord inversions and it was a bit disconcerting looking around trying to catch on to the keys for each song. If that was my regular gig I'd have another steel tuned Eb for sure.
As for someone sitting in, I think it would be courtesy for them to sing where the band tunes... unless it was a rehearsal for a new lineup where you were contemplating playing retuned.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Mark Nix
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 8:58 am
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| Mark van Allen wrote: |
More and more bands are doing that these days, for vocal ease and a different resonance. Some instruments sound better tuned down a bit, for instance, it's surprising how different some resonator guitars sound tuned to D versus G, and lap steels tuned to D versus E...
Among other bands I've played with Zac Brown tunes to Eb. I always just mentally transpose, playing a half step flat. The last time I sat in with Zac, he had five or six guitarists onstage all playing different chord inversions and it was a bit disconcerting looking around trying to catch on to the keys for each song. If that was my regular gig I'd have another steel tuned Eb for sure.
As for someone sitting in, I think it would be courtesy for them to sing where the band tunes... unless it was a rehearsal for a new lineup where you were contemplating playing retuned. |
Didn't know he tuned down. I doubt he did when they did the zac brown incident with string cheese. Of the new country I'll give it to him. It's not, well, everything else. It 's actually good. I honestly can't stand most modern country music and I like his band.
Also, when my voice doesn't fit a selection, I transpose it myself so my voice does fit it. Instead of making everyone go to a different tuning. I find it easier for the band to stay in standard tuning and me to transpose the key before we learn it in something that would need to be tuned some other way to reach the sung notes.
_________________
'73 Shobud Pro II D10 9&8 - '99 Fender Stratocaster '62 Re-issue - VOX AD120VTH's - VOX AD412's |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 1:06 pm
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Tuning down half step is sorta silly to me. I think with todays modern guitars and steels that It takes away from their tone and some how messes up how things sound in tune. I played fiddle one night with a band that tunes down so I had to tune down on fiddle but sounded like crap. Just wouldn't mix with rest of band. I understand Buck Owens in the early days tuned down half step to establish part of their sound. Tom Brumley, I don't think tuned down with them, he just played in sharps and flats.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Oct 2014 2:06 pm
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From a Vintage Guitar story about Buck, Tom says;
"Lower tunings and the corresponding looser feel were, Brumley adds, “a good idea. The same gauge strings in E and (lower tuning) made the pedals easier to push (with) less string breakage. I still use the same gauge strings when I tune to E. When I quit Buck (and) went back to E it took me a long time to get (used to) that feel.”
I'll have to ask Jerry (Brightman) if he tuned down during his years with Buck. |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 8:04 am
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| Kevin Raymer wrote: |
My little band of misfits worked with a new vocalist tonite.
This guy says he always tunes a half step down.
So we all did as he asked.
However it really hurt my tone and it seemed all my pedals were out of tune..
I never really thought about it but it seems that pitch changes over the range of string tension is not a linear function.
Is that actually what I experienced or was something else going on.. |
Kevin; I doubt that you would have retuned your PSG if your bad mates had capo'ed up several frets or if they had all changed to various open tunings. I'd write this experience off to an experiment which under color of law's of physics and hindsight did not work out.
You are correct that "pitch changes over the range of string tension is not a linear function." So all the changes on your PSG will overshoot and will be out of adjustment if you tune your PSG strings down or up without readjusting the changer. I'll add here that sometimes changing a strings alloy (or even Brand sometimes) will require minor changer adjustments even if the string gauge is the same. So I completely understand why your pedals and knee levers were out of tune.
I have some 6-string guitars which I typically tune down 1 to 2.5 steps and which I use heavier guaged strings on. These instruments sound great to me in the setups which I have them in and a .014 on the high string gets the pickups to respond in a manner which a .010 does not and never will. I do switch back and forth between "standard"-interval tuning and variations which include open tunings within the context of being tuned down. I know of many guitar players (particularly electric guitar players) that tune down so that they can play with heavier guaged strings because they think that they get better tone from their instruments with the heavier strings.
My thought here is that the PSG has complexities which do not exist on non-pedal guitars which makes tuning PSG's down on the spur of the moment less practical than with their non-pedal kin.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 8:38 am
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A blues band I used to sit in with went through an SRV phase (he's now finding his own voice, after going through Al Green¹ and Tab Benoit phases), and tuned down.
Because I like open string licks, I dropped to join them. The slight slackening did feel different under the fingers, and the tonality was pleasing.
¹Those Al Green horn stings are fun on steel. I wish I were better at thinking horn. I can't improv them well.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 8:48 am
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| Sometimes, for new steelers, it is difficult playing with Eb tuned bands, especially when they are playing cowboy chords in first position (Eb). You need to know the A+F lever combinations and also the chords available with the 9th string D as the root.... otherwise you end up playing a lot way up the neck. I remember the A HA moment when I discovered Eb chords at the first and second frets. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 9:26 am
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| Good chords, but they don't always work, in context. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Oct 2014 11:27 pm
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Chuck Berry tuned down to Eb.
This kept the guitar players from stepping on his licks. Made the bass player really pay attention.
First time our band backed him, It really affected what we played and how we played it. We stayed out of his way. And sounded great.
Made his licks easier to play.
When he came on stage he shouted Johnny B Goode, Eb, hit it! Every one did a double take.
A bit of trivia from the early '60's. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 6 Oct 2014 7:31 am
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John Billings says open strings sound better than at the 11th fret. So they do, but what's to stop you finding your root chord at fret 2, or 6?
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Oct 2014 9:32 am
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| Depends on what you're playing in the song. |
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Paul Crawford
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 7 Oct 2014 7:23 pm
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| For just trying it out for the night, I'd politely point out I'd need to retune 10 strings and about a dozen raises and lowers, taking practice time from the group we might better use playing. That said, I'd promise we could try it next time when I'd have more time to prepare. Depending on your musical preference, I might spend the night at the 3rd fret of the Big Neck. |
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