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Topic: How important is a rhythm section to a steel guitarist? |
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 10:31 am |
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I've been playing steel guitar in 'good' country bands since a very early age.
One of my early realizations was that "good rhythm" guitar players were indeed rare and even more difficult to find.
Then along came R&R with the LEAD DRUMMERS.......
It seemed that the term "rhythm section" no longer had a place. No appropriate accents and the bing, bang crashing sounds of the drums seemed to drown out every little embellishment one had worked months or even years to develop and master. Such a disaster. Not to be over-looked are the occasional drum and bugle corpse marching band drummers.
From time to time I'd glimpse a great guitarist but they either moved on, died, became worthless drunks or went thro' a devastating divorce or bankruptcy that ended their enthusiasm for playing.
I always felt Homer Haynes (Home & Jethro) was one of the finest rhythm men that I'd ever heard. I truly enjoyed hearing him play as much as the vocalist...........
But since my attention recently was directed to the
beautiful Texas trio...the Quebe Sisters Band, with their wonderfully matched voices and fiddle playing with identical bowing and ear catching styling, etc. my life has not been the same. I also found the one of a kind, fabulous rhythm guitar playing by a low-profile Joey McKenzie.
No finer rhythm man could possibly exist in country music at this time, IMHO. I could spend an entire day just listening to his really intricate chord work.
Joey is without compromise, one of the GREATEST rhythm guitarist I have ever heard. His passing chords, his tremendously appropriate accents and different strumming in all the right places really places him at the top, in my book.
How do YOU guys feel about a GREAT guitarist vs. a LEAD DRUMMER?  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 10:40 am
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I play with just a guitarist fairly often, and my most recent album is solo. It's nice to have a good rhythm section, but bass and drums are by no means necessary to create good music. All you need are good musicians. It doesn't matter what instruments they play.
Just my opinion.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 10:49 am
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I think this pretty much tells the whole story. Told by one of the greatest musicians in Nashville, session player, member of the Nashville Symphony, member of the Nashville A Team, and all around super picker.
http://youtu.be/srzu8qIr2pY
RC |
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Rick Schacter
From:
Portland, Or.
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 11:38 am Re: How important is a rhythm section to a steel guitarist?
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
Then along came R&R with the LEAD DRUMMERS.......
It seemed that the term "rhythm section" no longer had a place. No appropriate accents and the bing, bang crashing sounds of the drums seemed to drown out every little embellishment one had worked months or even years to develop and master. Such a disaster. Not to be over-looked are the occasional drum and bugle corpse marching band drummers.
How do YOU guys feel about a GREAT guitarist vs. a LEAD DRUMMER? |
Ray,
I'm going to keep on telling you this until you finally get it.
With all due respect, it is absolutely crucial to have a great rhythm section, even in rock and roll.
"Lead drummers" are a pain in the butt, even in rock and roll.
The rhythms in rock and roll might be a bit more complex than in most country music, and rock does tend to focus more on the beat than maybe country does, BUT they still need to know when to back off and not walk all over the other players.
This is true with ALL of the players in a band. Regardless of style.
Now...I can see where we'd have a BIG problem if you have a drummer who insists on playing like John Bonham in a Buck Owens song, or Hawaiian music, etc.
Good to see you posting. Seems like it's been a while.
Rick |
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Len Ryder
From:
Penticton B.C.
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 1:31 pm
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| Ray: I hear where you are e coming from. Shortly after moving back from Hawaii in the 60s I was booked into a club for the Calgary Stampede. The drummer was a young fellow and had the idea that a drummer should hit everything including the wall and floor. Needles to say he was not used. The replacement was an elderly black fellow from the States who just said "what do you want"? I explained and he was an actual GEM to work with. I wish I could remember his name but time is against me. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 6:36 pm
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How important is a rhythm section to a steel guitarist?
It's indespensable whether it's a guitar player, drummer, chicken bone shaker, or bongo boy.
Rhythmn is a building block of music no matter how you cut it. Just depends on what you & your ears like and what kind of music you want to do, and what & who is available to take the trip with you.
UNLESS- you're playing solo steel, in which case, you are your own rhytmn dude.
It's been said that a really good drummer can make a so-so band sound really good, and a not so good drummer can make a really good band sound lousy.
I've seen it a thousand times. Bet you have too.
Good to see you posting Ray!
Cheers
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Frank James Pracher
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 8:13 pm
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All I can say is, I played with a real good drummer tonight and it made my job a heck of lot easier
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"Don't be mad honey, but I bought another one" |
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James Jacoby
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 10:04 pm
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| I'm surprised nobody even mentioned the Bass! I think the Bass, and drums, are the most important part of any band! IMO, if the Bass, and Drums aren't right, It's not going to sound good, no matter how good the other players are. I say this as a Lead guitar, Bass, and PSG player for many years. If those two are doing the right thing, the other instruments will practically, play themselves! And, yes, I appreciate good rhythm guitarists, a lot. A lot of musicians play rhythm guitar, because they think it's easy, but, in my opinion, a really good rhythm player, has to be just as highly skilled as a top lead player. My favorites are Homer Haines, and "Ranger" Doug Green. -Jake- |
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James Jacoby
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2014 10:17 pm
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| Sorry B0B!I guess you did mention Bass,although you didn't deem it as important as I. All this reminds me of my Dad's favorite saying, "A chain is only as strong, as it's weakest link". I think a band is,"Only as good as it's worst player!" -Jake- |
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Floyd Lowery
From:
Deland, Florida, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 4:49 am
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Yup, what James said is so true. It is all so very important. If one is messing up - it is bad. I have sat next to a good bass player many nights and played off of his changes and accents. When the bass, drummer, and rhythm are together, the rest flows a lot easier.
_________________
Carter 12 string 4petals 5knees, Mullen G2 3 petals 4 knees
Alesis QuadraVerb, Goodrich Match-Bro II
Peavy Nashville 400 & Session 500 |
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steinar
From:
Finneidfjord, Norway
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 5:36 am Rhythm section.
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James, I wholeheartedly agree with your views on the role of the bass together with drums. Jeff Newman used to say that the bass player is the king of the band, and if the bass player together with the drummer groove, the rest is just frosting on the cake.
All too often, 4/4 shuffles are ruined with a bass player who hasn`t studied Ray Price or Husky, and drummers who don`t have the wrist technique for playing the double stroke on the cymbal or don`t understand the importance of a clear rimshot or don`t master brushes or one stick together with one brush.
Thhhat`s all, folks! |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 9:31 am
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To me, a good rhythm section is crucial to a good sounding band. Drums and bass locked in, rhythm guitar working the groove with bass and drummer. he Makes the job of singers and soloists a joy instead of a chore.
The drummer in particular is crucial. A good drummer will make or break a band. There are so few drummers around who understand the kiss principal, less is more. In the last 12 years I have only worked with 2 drummers who truly know how to apply a rim shot or use brushes. No consistency, everything is fast, every turn around is a solo, and loud.
Heavy handed keyboard players too. Slamming the bass in the left hand, constant noodling in the right hand. Leaves no real room for a good rhythm section groove.
I think the root of the problem is that "every body wants to be a star." Surprisingly, the vast majority of musicians with successful life long careers are unknown to the average listener, simply because they are exceptional at laying down the groove so the star--singers and soloists--can shine.
_________________
ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 12:42 pm
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| Jim Kennedy wrote: |
I think the root of the problem is that "every body wants to be a star." Surprisingly, the vast majority of musicians with successful life long careers are unknown to the average listener, simply because they are exceptional at laying down the groove so the star--singers and soloists--can shine. |
I started as a rhythm guitar player. Always wanted to do more even though the steel and guitar player loved what I was doing. I felt like a stage prop and not part of the band. I guess I should of kept on playing rhythm guitar. Would of had more money in the bank for sure ! lol
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Bill |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 1:49 pm
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| To me the bass and drums can even make me sound a lot better than I am. I think they are the band. |
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Dean Rimmer
From:
texas
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 3:29 pm
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| ask the drummer.....are you good with brushes.. ask the bass man ....soooo what'cha gonna do with that 5th string.....lol .always works for me |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 4:35 pm About drummers..........
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I have no way of knowing how you might feel.........
but I've had a fair amount of experience playing in both 7-10 piece country bands as well as only four players. The drums are a definite asset in the larger groups however IMHO, totally unnecessary in the trio size group. I think it was Bob Wills that was one of the earliest groups to employ a drummer and he of course, had a DANCE BAND.
Chord changes on a strong rhythm guitar make the melody of the steel so much more meaningful than otherwise. Joey McKenzie provides a strong example of what I'm attempting to articulate. If you haven't already, you might go to You Tube and give a listen to his guitar artistry with the Quebe Sisters
BAN.
We once asked a 'new' drummer in the group if he was going to use 'brushes'. In complete bewilderment, he asked "BRUSHES?" |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 9:01 pm
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The rhythm section makes the band. You can get by with mediocre lead players if your rhythm section is solid. If not, the best lead instruments can't make the band sound good.
I think at one time, Ricky Skaggs had the best rhythms section of any band. Of course his lead instruments were great too but his rhythm section was solid as a rock. Makes it so much easier to play.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2014 10:49 pm
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The question was "How important is a rhythm section to a steel guitarist?" I agree with Henry Matthews that the rhythm section is very important to the band. But given the number of steel players who perform with tracks or Band-In-A-Box, I have to conclude that the rhythm section isn't important to a lot of steel guitarists.
Most steel players have very simple tastes when it comes to bass and drums. So simple, in fact, that it's hard to find rhythm sections who are willing to play like that. That's why they use tracks and BIAB - they don't want to hear anything creative from the guys in back. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 4:04 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| But given the number of steel players who perform with tracks or Band-In-A-Box, I have to conclude that the rhythm section isn't important to a lot of steel guitarists. |
Or they don't realize how important a good one is.
I have NEVER felt bad when surrounded by better musicians. They don't make you look worse, they make you look better (and if you're paying attention, they make you PLAY better)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 4:51 am
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| I'm really lucky in that the Bass player and Drummer in the band I play in flat smoke. As a result the band just steams along and is afforded some great opportunities for creativity. Without a solid bottom end ,that canvas to paint on if you will is absent. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 7:03 am
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Everyone needs a bass player.
You need someone to look at when you hit a clam!  |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 9:19 am
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| what do they do with the 5th string? |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 10:19 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| what do they do with the 5th string? |
You rest your thumb on it so you find the other four!
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Dean Rimmer
From:
texas
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Posted 15 Sep 2014 10:31 am
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| an old fiddle player friend of mine yous'ta say... the bass n drums pull the train....its our job to make it a scenic trip.....also.....not so long ago....drums is fine in a marching band ... but they got no place in country music..lol...yeah ive heard some old timers say that.........and chris...nobody ever came up with good explanation.for the 5th string deal...again lol |
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James Jacoby
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2014 12:31 am
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| My bass has SIX strings! The high "C" string gives you a nice normal sounding medium high note, when playing down near the nut, and the low"B" string will give you a nice low note when playing up near the twelfth fret,effectively taking the sting out of the dreaded E flat! The neck is a little wide, but it never bothered me much. I have no problem playing a 4, 5, or 6 string, but I prefer the six string, because of it's superior versatility. I use the "fifth" string a lot, but the "C" string I don't use quite as much. -Jake- |
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